I planning to buy softimage XSI foundation

[medeamajic]

Originally Posted by Reactor

Hey bud, you were the one picking on me! If you're going to pick, at least have an answer to the thing it is you're defending.



I thought we were talking about Markus pushing Carrara to it's limits, but... whatever.



3D is a very different form of art from traditional non-digital. The workflow of a digital artist is completely different, and there's a good chance your friend doesn't realise how good XSI is in this area. Being good at modeling in Wings doesn't help someone understand good workflow when it comes to completing an animation, rendering and modeling project- something XSI (and any other 3D package) is designed for. If your friend thinks XSI is weak, tell him to argue it with the guys on the XSI mailing list.



I'll be blunt, but I don't mean offense- you're naive as far as these things go. Do a little research before saying something else silly. As I said, I'm not trying to be offensive by saying that, but... you are way out of the ballpark with your comments, and one day you're going to look back and feel like a real dummy for saying them. That I can guarantee.

Reactor,

No one is upset that you priased the XSI software in this thread. I can do that myself but I opt to post about software than I can use. I am not arguing XSI has some great professional features that Carrara lacks but I want you to prove it to me. I posted an Image for you to see. It was not one of my best works but one I posted in these forums before. I would not consider my self a beginner to 3-D but I am not a pro either. I now XSI can do some great things but what can you do with it? Are you a beginner with professional software that you can not use because you don't under stand the professional features? If so could that be the fate of others?

I am not picking on Reactor for praising XSI but with all of the comments he has made I would expect him to have several mind blowing images and videos that blow away any thing by Markus. I want to see a few of them and the time is now.

I think my comments and post have been fair and very tame.

[Narration]

Hmm, Brian. (Nichod)

I sat down for a while last night with Carrara 5, and seemed to find that 'SSS' (Sub-Surface Scattering) with lots of controls is very easily available and nice to experiment with - same as with blurred reflections, and Fresnel aspect as well.

So I don't know what you mean when you say

Originally Posted by Nichod

Can't do that in Carrara.

I thought about what could be different about 'Nodes' compared to the Shader Tree in Carrara.

Well, there is a structural difference, even if it is not mentioned in the posts here. It is that with a node map, information from a given subshader can be used by more than one subshader. This could be convenient, avoiding duplication in complex cases. And it could very easily be added to Carrara as a feature.

But otherwise Nodes are just Shaders, aren't they? And when I look for what specialities are available for XSI or Lightwave, I get web pages which look very much like the shader offerings for Carrara. An example below.

I can't understand the statement that Carrara is only good for still illustration - not animation. We have Markus's excellent examples, just to begin with, and perhaps 'a few' others. Maybe this was just a late night mistake in what you wanted to say.

So, what do we have, to answer the original poster's interests? We have a very capable Carrara, and a very capable XSI -- yes, with some extra abilities no doubt. In a package that offers a beginner entry at USD 500, a full package at about USD 2000 -- and add-ons like the Face Robot for USD 95,000. Yes.

I think in fact we are developing an answer to the original poster's interest, when we recognize that the ability to script the way the application woroks, and to add features, is the most prominent advantage offered by XSI. How many of XSI's powerful features were added on in this way - as in other history?

And the most interesting thing is how Carrara has been able to add in very quickly such features -- like the SSS. That was done at the very late stages of the Carrara 5 development: because those who use the software were listened to - it was requested.

I would think you'd have an interest in this -- and in Daz's sentiment about 'making movies', since you sell shaders yourself.

And what happens when/if Carrara adds more complete scripting, as it could easily do?

The last thing I put aside as probably a late night mistake, Brian, is your threatening to close the thread.

I don't think Thomas would be very pleased to understand that this was done for mentioning subjects you might not personally like to hear.

So let's not hear it again, all right? Free talk is where everything grows.

Thank you. And kind regards,

Narration

Here's the link to XSI shaders: http://www.edharriss.com/shaders/shaders.htm

[Jolran]

If we stick to the subject, I think I saw at unagioni.com the guy who is developping plugins for Carrara had some major difficulties working on the scripting. As I understood the different windows where kinda locked.
So I wouldent hope for advanced scripting in the next few releases.
Anyway I really suspect one just cant "chip in" scripting like that. You must rebuild the whole interface.

I think in fact we are developing an answer to the original poster's interest, when we recognize that the ability to script the way the application woroks, and to add features, is the most prominent advantage offered by XSI.

Theres a heck of alot of other features available on top of that.
(this goes to Mox studio)
You have a ton of constraints wich you can use in any way you can imagine.
For ex I remodeled a rigged mesh yesterday. You can do extrusions, and even transfer UV, and weightmap properties on skinned models if you want to merge part of meshes. That is a great timesaver. Weightmaps in general
is agreat way to stear certain properties.

I Agre on this and it probably sums up the whole thread, in my opinion:
"

It depends on what you WANT to do. If you want to create simple still renders. I'd say that Carrara 5 Pro is the perfect option. If you wish to animate. Then I'd definetly recommend XSI as it offers a much more flexible toolset for film production"

There is no need to get hostile in this thread. Everyone here that gives thumbs up on XSI probably have or had Carrara in his toolbag.

[Nichod]

Hmm, Brian. (Nichod)

I sat down for a while last night with Carrara 5, and seemed to find that 'SSS' (Sub-Surface Scattering) with lots of controls is very easily available and nice to experiment with - same as with blurred reflections, and Fresnel aspect as well.

So I don't know what you mean when you say

I think you misunderstood what I said. In XSI you can drive or create a fast blurry reflections using the subsurface scattering node.

I thought about what could be different about 'Nodes' compared to the Shader Tree in Carrara.

Well, there is a structural difference, even if it is not mentioned in the posts here. It is that with a node map, information from a given subshader can be used by more than one subshader. This could be convenient, avoiding duplication in complex cases. And it could very easily be added to Carrara as a feature.

But otherwise Nodes are just Shaders, aren't they? And when I look for what specialities are available for XSI or Lightwave, I get web pages which look very much like the shader offerings for Carrara. An example below.

Yes, that is the primary advantage. And Carrara does offer a way of doing this with reference shaders, but its an akward approach. I would think that it would not be easy to implement this in Carrara, it would require likely a complete rewrite or reorganization on how shaders are handled in Carrara. Also, Carrara doesn't offer the flexiblity of shaders that XSI does. You can even program your own shaders with just a few lines of code.

I can't understand the statement that Carrara is only good for still illustration - not animation. We have Markus's excellent examples, just to begin with, and perhaps 'a few' others. Maybe this was just a late night mistake in what you wanted to say.

No it wasn't. If you want to create character animation. Carrara 5 is not a good choice for that. I have a lot of experience in trying to get Character animation to work in Carrara, and at its current stage it does not offer that ability. In XSI I can rig a character in 15 minutes (using the default biped rig) and start animating pretty much right away with a few more tools I can setup a plane that the character can walk on and leave footprints using softbody dynamics. There is nothing wrong with Carrara, its powerful yet simple to use, its just not ready for highend animation. Flythrough type animation, yes perhaps. Also, upon comparing Carrara and XSI. I found that I can get the same quality render at less than half the rendering time. Another issue if you want to do animation.

I think in fact we are developing an answer to the original poster's interest, when we recognize that the ability to script the way the application woroks, and to add features, is the most prominent advantage offered by XSI. How many of XSI's powerful features were added on in this way - as in other history?

And the most interesting thing is how Carrara has been able to add in very quickly such features -- like the SSS. That was done at the very late stages of the Carrara 5 development: because those who use the software were listened to - it was requested.

Scripting is a big advantage. Yes.

SSS in Carrara is good, but overly simple. I'm currently petitioning to improve it. We need control of depth within shaders. A good start would be transparency absorption. And with SSS we need control of the layers of scattering and the ability to control them with image maps.

I would think you'd have an interest in this -- and in Daz's sentiment about 'making movies', since you sell shaders yourself.

And what happens when/if Carrara adds more complete scripting, as it could easily do?

I am interested in this. Though not necessarily to sell shaders. I'm not a salesman. I enjoy sharing and perhaps making a little profit on my shaders, its something I enjoy to create. I've asked for scripting capabilities since version 3.

The last thing I put aside as probably a late night mistake, Brian, is your threatening to close the thread.

I don't think Thomas would be very pleased to understand that this was done for mentioning subjects you might not personally like to hear.

So let's not hear it again, all right? Free talk is where everything grows.

First off, it was the middle of the day when I posted. I was not threatening, I was saying that I would close the thread if the arguing continued. I realized I need to encourage getting back on topic so posted my views on XSI. Yes, we are all about free talk, but not being nasty to each other, and not at the expense of helping out one another. Grendel agrees with me I'm sure, as does Thomas. I would ask Thomas prior to closing the thread, be sure of that;)

[KhrisK]

No it wasn't. If you want to create character animation. Carrara 5 is not a good choice for that. I have a lot of experience in trying to get Character animation to work in Carrara, and at its current stage it does not offer that ability.

Why do you keep avoiding Markus's examples? It's very clear in his website that Carrara is just as capable. Why do you keep insisting it is not? Who do you think you are? We're not that dumb. I don't even know why you are a moderator in this forum and not in the XSI forums.

[KhrisK]

Originally Posted by medeamajic

I am not picking on Reactor for praising XSI but with all of the comments he has made I would expect him to have several mind blowing images and videos that blow away any thing by Markus. I want to see a few of them and the time is now.

I would expect the same thing for Nichod. Let's do some walking, not just talking. XSI is great, but where is Nichod's beef? I would like to see some mind-blowing animations they made in XSI and let's see if we can't do them in Carrara. Talk is easy. With all of the praises XSI got, I would expect SAMPLES from you people, too.

[Narration]

Originally Posted by KhrisK

Why do you keep avoiding Markus's examples? It's very clear in his website that Carrara is just as capable.

Khris, I think we have to be careful here.

It's pretty clear that the Angelina Joli, for example, was rigged in Poser, and from a Poser character. Not that it isn't very nicely done, and not that I don't think I see some attractive weight painting, whether from Poser or Carrara not clear.

I was about to reply positively to Brian's latest post, in general, and again I suspect from reading about XSI that he is correct about the ramp-up in power which looks considerable, especially about being able to _adjust_ after you've first set things, in XSI animation. I was about to look up if that is included in the introductory package.

The 'open space' here is to understand what is structurable, if it is, in Carrara. I think Brian came quite a bit more open here, and it is good for future conversation.

You know I've been on the side of recognising imagination and capabilities - most of all in the artist, compared to the package. In fact I only entered in here at first to get more even ground where the table was being tilted by the form of language used.

That's over, so let's keep it so, and enjoy what we learn.

Kind regards, and a good day to you - the sun just came out here in Basel,

Narration

[Nichod]

Why do you keep avoiding Markus's examples? It's very clear in his website that Carrara is just as capable. Why do you keep insisting it is not? Who do you think you are? We're not that dumb. I don't even know why you are a moderator in this forum and not in the XSI forums.

Please remain calm. This is just a discussion. Carrara is quite capable on many levels. But character animation is not its strength. Please attempt to recognize this. Markus has some great examples, but other then one simple example of a robot, the character animations were done in Poser. Please I suggest taking a look at how both programs work and come to your own conclusion. If you believe Carrara is just as capable, well that is your opinion and you are welcome to create the next feature film.

I love Carrara with the best of them and I recommend it all the time. I've even acted as a paid instructor and educated about Carrara. And I'm sticking with it. I may consider getting XSI as it is quite capable, but I'll always utilize Carrara in some way. But I do recognize its weaknesses.

[KhrisK]

Originally Posted by Narration

Khris, I think we have to be careful here.

It's pretty clear that the Angelina Joli, for example, was rigged in Poser, and from a Poser character. Not that it isn't very nicely done, and not that I don't think I see some attractive weight painting, whether from Poser or Carrara not clear.

I have no problem Carrara being aided with other apps such as Poser. But how many add ons Maya and Max have? XSI has Mental Ray. Anyhow I'll try to contact Markus through intermediaries. Or just drop this thing altogether and let it go. It's useless.

[Nichod]

I would expect the same thing for Nichod. Let's do some walking, not just talking. XSI is great, but where is Nichod's beef? I would like to see some mind-blowing animations they made in XSI and let's see if we can't do them in Carrara. Talk is easy. With all of the praises XSI got, I would expect SAMPLES from you people, too.

Will attempt to as soon as I get a chance, but I have a fulltime job, fulltime college and a fulltime family including a rather active 1 year old. My personal use of XSI for testing is very limited, but I'm more than happy to provide examples as soon as I possibly can. I was testing out a simple hip to foot rig I created with softbody for the ground (footprints) yesterday, I'll see if I can get some screencaptures and/or renders for you.

[Nichod]

I have no problem Carrara being aided with other apps such as Poser. But how many add ons Maya and Max have? XSI has Mental Ray. Anyhow I'll try to contact Markus through intermediaries.

Mental ray is included and is no additional charge. If you purchase C5 Pro and Poser 6 you will actually be paying more than XSI by itself. All products have add ons, you buy what you need for the task at hand. Personally I'm not a big poser supporter, its old techniques (lack of SDS, poor rigging, etc) are not my style. I'd prefer Carrara enhance its own abilities.

[KhrisK]

Point is, most likely most of us are not going to do mind-blowing Hollywood scenes in our lifetimes.

[Narration]

Originally Posted by KhrisK

I have no problem Carrara being aided with other apps such as Poser. But how many add ons Maya and Max have? XSI has Mental Ray. Anyhow I'll try to contact Markus through intermediaries.

Sounds good, and it's likely to be very interesting what you learn from Markus - please share!

[Nichod]

Theres a heck of alot of other features available on top of that.
(this goes to Mox studio)
You have a ton of constraints wich you can use in any way you can imagine.
For ex I remodeled a rigged mesh yesterday. You can do extrusions, and even transfer UV, and weightmap properties on skinned models if you want to merge part of meshes. That is a great timesaver. Weightmaps in general
is agreat way to stear certain properties

Good examples. On flexibility of features, I came across an interesting thread at cgtalk talking about Silo's topology brush and whether XSI had the ability. They came up with a few ingenius methods. One used a wrap modifier to wrap the mesh around the dense mesh and then shape it, all extrusions would then follow the shape of the mesh. Pretty cool.

[KhrisK]

Tsk, tsk. People just don't get what Medeamajic has been saying. Here's a guy, Markus who have made it in Hollywood using Carrara with tons of samples to share. Who are we going to believe?

[Nichod]

Point is, most likely most of us are not going to do mind-blowing Hollywood scenes in our lifetimes.

So we agree that XSI is capable of this and Carrara is not. I'm glad we have come to an agreement.

[KhrisK]

Originally Posted by Nichod

So we agree that XSI is capable of this and Carrara is not. I'm glad we have come to an agreement.

I don't understand what you mean. I'm saying you can say anything you want about the power of XSI, but if you can't show anything to prove it, it's useless. Talk is cheap. You can have all the tools in the world and still come up with nothing. It's in the creator, not the tools.

[Nichod]

I don't understand what you mean. I'm saying you can say anything you want about the power of XSI, but if you can't show anything to prove it, it's useless. Talk is cheap.

Lets keep this type of talk to a minimum. I told you as soon as I get a chance I'll show some personal things. There is no need to get nasty. For now I suggest downloading the demo. Or visiting one of the following sites to see its abilities.

http://www.mesmer.com
http://www.xsibase.com
http://www.xsi-blog.com
http://www.softimage.com
http://www.cgtalk.com (XSI forum)
http://www.edharris.com

All have excellent video demonstrations of its abilities or other visual aids in determining the abilities of XSI.

http://www.digitaltutors.com also has some great free tutorials. I'd also suggest visiting these sites if you are interested in XSI will give you some good insight on whether XSI will serve your purposes.

[Reactor]

People just don't get what Medeamajic has been saying.

We get it. We're just not in the business of providing art on demand. The original thread author was looking for information, so that's what we're providing. Unless he asks for credentials, or portfolio work, I know that I personally will not be providing any.

Back on topic- I think anyone with the cash would be hard pressed to go wrong with XSI. It's a great tool to have in the toolbox, and I think it compliments Carrara really well. When you can't be bothered taking the long road to do something in XSI, Carrara is just fast and easy. When you need more options, XSI is there. So, where you'd be wasting your time having (for example) Maya and 3ds together, XSI and Carrara just go hand in hand, which is why I purchased Carrara, even though XSI can do everything it can.

An example of the above- a GI solution in XSI takes a long time to set up. One in Carrara takes about two minutes. I love it