Mudbox pricing - $299 US - Page 2 - Polyloop

zaxxon · 15th December 2006, 20:17

It's for sale as of today. I have purchased the 'non-commercial' edition for now:

Who can buy the Basic (Noncommercial) version of Mudbox?
The idea of the Basic (Noncommercial) version is to make Mudbox accessible not only to students and teachers, but also to anyone else who just wants to learn and enjoy digital sculpting. So the Basic (Noncommercial) version is intended for students and other home users for use on personal, noncommercial (not for profit) projects. As with other noncommercial software, using Mudbox Basic to contribute to a commercial (for-profit) project would be a violation of the terms of agreement.

Nate Owens · 15th December 2006, 21:29

I noticed.
Temptation is creeping in my ear...

When you say you have the noncommercial version for now, does that mean that there is an upgrade path from the noncommercial to the commercial (ie: without paying the full commercial price on top of the noncommercial)?

Thanks for your input.... I just got Modo (pro), and while they have a promise of doing sculpting/displacement painting down the road, it might not have the capabilities of MudBox....

Guess I'd have to spring for the pro version of Mudbox... every time I buy a program I think is just to play with, I end up using it in some project(s) eventually.

I sure wish Silo would wake up and do something... I don't want to be sarcastic, but ... what's with the name... Nevercenter

Anyway, having Modo, I think my next stop will be Mudbox.
Sounds like a winning combo.

Thinking about it big-time!

zaxxon · 16th December 2006, 00:32

Hey Nate,

Skymatter has alluded to an upgrade path, but not sure what it is. For the time being I'm working on some personal animation projects with no commercial intent, this will be a good learning experience with the software, then we'll see. As to Modo, I also own that, primarily to UVWrap and paint, but honestly the complexity of the workflow (to me) is a bit off putting (not as totaly ass-backwards as ZBrush though). But Modo is powerful, and the renderer is superb and sublime. I think that Brad Peebler of Luxology was upfront that the preview of Modo's sculpt abilities were announced in response to Mudbox's availability, and was calculatedly 'premature'. I suspect it will be awhile before it's ready for release. Silo is a different story, I still prefer Hex as a base modeler (heresy, I know), so what the NEVERcenter guys come up with will get my serious attention, the Mirai navigation mode is very appealing to this ex-Mirai guy. Looking forward to see'n the doodlin' dude on the Luxology forums!

DoctorLister · 17th December 2006, 00:07

Someone from Skymatter posted in a thread on CGtalk that the upgrade path from Basic to Pro would cost $395, which would make the final cost about $45 more than if you bought the Pro version in the first place. I don't think it's a good practice to charge more than the difference on an upgrade path, I would have bought the Basic now and upgraded later if it didn't cost me more in the long run.

Nate Owens · 17th December 2006, 14:54

No question that mudbox is a great app, and as soon as I can I plan to get it.

Why do they say no refunds under any circumstances?
That bothers me for any product... even a toaster.

That seems pretty hardnosed. Surely there must be some situation that would qualify.

Just seemed a bit unusual... anyone seen that anywhere else?

Is there no mudbox forum?

DoctorLister · 17th December 2006, 20:49

The forums for Mudbox at Skymatter are closed to the public, you have to buy the software to get access. All the reports on how great the software is for sculpting got me excited to buy it, since Zbrush is a bit of a pain in the neck for me to wrap my head around the interface. But several things like the extra charge to upgrade from Basic to Pro, no demo, no refund, the complete lack of any phone or email to reach anyone at the company, etc. have caused me to be wary of their business practices. I get the impression that they had a good team for developing the software but don't really have anyone good at the business end, so I worry that I might shell out $650 for a product and then never be able to reach someone if I have a problem.

I'm guessing the lack of refunds is based on the fact that you can't really return software, so this prevents people from buying the program, asking for a refund, and never actually deleting the software. I also think they don't have the savvy to set up a mechanism for handling returns.

jbshorty · 18th December 2006, 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoctorLister

I get the impression that they had a good team for developing the software but don't really have anyone good at the business end, so I worry that I might shell out $650 for a product and then never be able to reach someone if I have a problem...

Well, you can shell out an extra $358 which will entitle you to ask them 3 questions (without any subquestions attached). Did everybody catch that? Average cost is $120 per each question, and then you get no further tech support. I've voiced this concern on a few forums now, and it seems largely overlooked that this practice is just freaking weird. It is bad enough in these days, you often can't get a phone # to call for help. Now you have to pay for help online? Smells fishy to me...

transient · 19th December 2006, 01:56

There's nothing fishy or weird about this type of scheme.

I think the toasters analogy is interesting, because this has what most 3d programs have become to many people, unfortunately.

A "major computer company" (don't want to tempt fate) used to bill my father out at US$200 + per hour to support their business customers. It's standard practice in business to have these kind of support deals.

I think many users these days aren't seeing the bigger picture, as they're hobbyist types who don't understand the hassles and costs involved with tech support, particularly in industry.

If Mudbox had a phone number, they would be inundated with questions like "why does your support cost so much", and the price of the software would triple because of the extra manpower needed.

I think everyone should be grateful hardcore tools like this are now affordable to hobbyists, and try not to fret because the companies that distribute them don't behave like walmart.

jbshorty · 19th December 2006, 02:48

transient, i respect your point of view on this. However there are plenty of 3D programs (many of them cheaper than Mudbox Pro) which have proven that tech support can be (and should be) possible without charging for it. and just because a phone number is available, it doesn't mean that people will make a call. It's easier these days to e-mail for help. But they don't offer that either. And it's a valid reason for people to be concerned... I'm not worried about it personally because Mudbox is low on my list of considered programs. So don't worry. No fretting going on over here. Just raising a concern that people might want to be aware of before spending their money...

transient · 19th December 2006, 06:19

That's fair enough.

Most software companies at least have e-mail support, or some kind of ticket system, I wasn't aware Skymatter had neither.

Nate Owens · 19th December 2006, 10:31

I don't depend on my toaster for my work (I'm not a hobbyist, and I didn't think many hobbyists would plunk down the big bucks just to make dolls using top of the line software).

The investment is not only the money, but time in learning the software, and once integrated into the toolbox if there is a problem, then the issue of having to convert work done for clients using the software to some other software package, because there are no options or recourse for a solution to any problems arising. (Been there, done that.)

If a problem just happens to be on their end (otherwise would be to assume that the company has invented an unheard of bug-free software) why should someone investing (all of the above) in the package have to shell out big time to help them pay for their mistakes?

Frankly, I doubt that SkyMatter is in any way shady or underhanded... their support seems a pretty hardline approach.

I will most likely invest in their software, I would just feel better if they met me halfway and I didn't have to do it with my fingers crossed.

jbshorty · 19th December 2006, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by transient

That's fair enough.

Most software companies at least have e-mail support, or some kind of ticket system, I wasn't aware Skymatter had neither.

they do have the ticket system which you pay for, and allows a max of 3 tickets. Other than that, the forums may be very helpful (as many forums are more helpful than the company itself). But without being open to the public, it's impossible to know how supportive the community is. And with Mudbox, the forum will be the only lifeline for many people. It would be nice for prospective buyers to get in there and ask some questions, or maybe to check bug reports, or look for problems related to specific hardware... No demo, no support, no refunds(?) means the user is assuming 100% of the risk.

Sketchy · 21st December 2006, 03:09

Don't know exactly why it costs more than the undisputed Zbrush. You only have to check pixologic gallery for this in which there are literally hundreds of amazing pics done in Zbrush. Is it Mudbox's simplified UI or what? I still think at $649 and at version 1, it's shameless. Sorry, that's how I feel about it. ;-)

zaxxon · 23rd December 2006, 02:11

Sketchy, "shameless" seems a bit harsh. Mudbox is a high end utility tool for cinemagraphic and game work. The fact that this tool is available to the average 3D artist, rather than locked away as a proprietary utility by the big studios is very cool. The price of $299 is very reasonable, the upgrade to pro is $395; but think about it - that's only $45 more than buying the pro straight away, makes sense to me. As to value for the cost; real working displacement maps to take to your 3D rendering,rigging and animation software. Created in a true 3D environment (not 2.5D via projection master in ZB), sculpt and texture dense meshes with full OGL display, the ability to layer, to use 16 bit alpha maps (32 bit in pro), an interface that is consistent with other tools in your pipeline, works for me. What other soft does this now, arguably none, ZB while you can create wonderful stuff, is still an odd duck, Silo isn't ready for prime time, Hex is broken, and Modo is offering pie-in-the-sky. As to support: the forums are great, admins are there regularly and are very helpful, not to mention there are some real power users hanging out. The paid support is intended for the guys using this as programmed for: production studios. I own this soft, and consider the $299 to be money very well spent.

Nate Owens · 23rd December 2006, 05:22

Good points all around, Zaxxon.
I need to grab that baby before it jumps in pricing.
Glad to hear their (private) forum is active and good.

Will you post some of your Mudbox WIPS and finals here at Polyloop?

Later,
Nate

zaxxon · 23rd December 2006, 06:11

Ola Doodlin' Dude! Mudbox is as slick a soft as I've used in a looong time. The manual is clear and informative, there's about 420 megs of videos, some by Dave Cardwell (WETA). The interface is seamless, with maya navigation and lightning quick opgl. The utilities within Mudbox are straightforward and extremely powerful: arbitrary mesh displacements, local subdivision, real 3D layers that can be blended and masked, blended displacements for morph target transitions, and sure to be more that I haven't seen yet. Here's an image that I've resumed work on. Modeled in Hex and being displacement sculpted in Mudbox.

Sketchy · 24th December 2006, 08:06

Just makes me wonder why the scant info on their website. They can't even show a full 3-minute video demonstration of the app. Their forum is inaccessible. There's no demo/trial version. It's as if they're trying to hide something.

jbshorty · 24th December 2006, 17:28

Not showing something good is not exactly the same as hiding something bad. But these guys at Skymatter obviously have a "pay to play" attitude.Which is a bit of a manipulation over potential customers. I would like to see them be a bit more open. What they are selling doesn;t require such a level of secrecy...

zaxxon · 24th December 2006, 17:37

Hey Sketchy, I think I understand where you are coming from. But in truth, there's nothing being 'hidden'. The forums are closed to non-registered owners (my opinion) because this is the principal 'support' for users. Skymatter is aware that the beta was heavily pirated, this is not a new idea, e-onsoftware has a similar setup for registered users. As to the website having 'scant' info, well that is a matter of opinion. The gallery alone gives you some idea of what the software can do. The overview and posted videos are very good. The accolades from industry leaders in 3D modeling, the praise from high level reviews. And, remember, this was created by working artists, not a marketing company. I have the soft, it works as advertised (the glitches that are there are more akin to a mature program than a 1.0 rev.) Once again, for $299 bucks american, this is great value. Keep in mind that the 'industry' has followed the development of this soft for some time. The Guys at WETA were beta testing the next rev of ZB, and evidently not real pleased with the limitations and directions it was headed in. They needed this type of tool, and started developing mudbox 'in house'. So the marketing buzz has grown thru skymatter's choice of beta testors and the work generated, voila! instant customer demand upon release. myself included.

zaxxon · 24th December 2006, 17:53

JBShorty, happy holidays, may the spirit of the season linger for all of us. Obviously I'm acting the part of a fanboy here, so be it. I don't think Skymatter needs to promote this product in a traditional way. I suspect that most major studios added seats upon MB's release, and the 'hobbyist/solo artist was offered the 'bone' of the $299 version as a 'paid' test. I had the opportunity to have some hands on, so I'm not discounting anyones cynicism about the lack of a demo, but the betas were 'out there' and could not have hurt the initial sales of 1.0, I hope there is a demo sometime soon, better believe pixologic is not keen on the idea though. Honestly my knowledgable friend, you would enjoy the interface and the intelligence of this program. The coding seems very tight, optimized for response and output. There I go, fanboy mania...
On my 2 gig athlon 3800 winXP64 with NV7600/256 I can scuplt smoothly with over 4 million polys. The image posted was 3.8 million polys and rotated/zoomed very smoothly. The brush tools working very close to real time, impresses the heck out of me.

15th December 2006, 20:17	#21 (permalink)
zaxxon NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 117	Mudbox now for sale It's for sale as of today. I have purchased the 'non-commercial' edition for now: Who can buy the Basic (Noncommercial) version of Mudbox? The idea of the Basic (Noncommercial) version is to make Mudbox accessible not only to students and teachers, but also to anyone else who just wants to learn and enjoy digital sculpting. So the Basic (Noncommercial) version is intended for students and other home users for use on personal, noncommercial (not for profit) projects. As with other noncommercial software, *using Mudbox Basic to contribute to a commercial (for-profit) project would be a violation of the terms of agreement.*

15th December 2006, 21:29	#22 (permalink)
Nate Owens Doodlin' Dude Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Carolina, USA Posts: 1,013	I noticed. Temptation is creeping in my ear... When you say you have the noncommercial version for now, does that mean that there is an upgrade path from the noncommercial to the commercial (ie: without paying the full commercial price on top of the noncommercial)? Thanks for your input.... I just got Modo (pro), and while they have a promise of doing sculpting/displacement painting down the road, it might not have the capabilities of MudBox.... Guess I'd have to spring for the pro version of Mudbox... every time I buy a program I think is just to play with, I end up using it in some project(s) eventually. I sure wish Silo would wake up and do something... I don't want to be sarcastic, but ... what's with the name... Nevercenter Anyway, having Modo, I think my next stop will be Mudbox. Sounds like a winning combo. Thinking about it big-time! __________________ Shirts, MousePads, Stuff / The Gallery / Videos / Blog

17th December 2006, 14:54	#25 (permalink)
Nate Owens Doodlin' Dude Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Carolina, USA Posts: 1,013	No question that mudbox is a great app, and as soon as I can I plan to get it. Why do they say no refunds under any circumstances? That bothers me for any product... even a toaster. That seems pretty hardnosed. Surely there must be some situation that would qualify. Just seemed a bit unusual... anyone seen that anywhere else? Is there no mudbox forum? __________________ Shirts, MousePads, Stuff / The Gallery / Videos / Blog

19th December 2006, 10:31	#31 (permalink)
Nate Owens Doodlin' Dude Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Carolina, USA Posts: 1,013	I don't depend on my toaster for my work (I'm not a hobbyist, and I didn't think many hobbyists would plunk down the big bucks just to make dolls using top of the line software). The investment is not only the money, but time in learning the software, and once integrated into the toolbox if there is a problem, then the issue of having to convert work done for clients using the software to some other software package, because there are no options or recourse for a solution to any problems arising. (Been there, done that.) If a problem just happens to be on their end (otherwise would be to assume that the company has invented an unheard of bug-free software) why should someone investing (all of the above) in the package have to shell out big time to help them pay for their mistakes? Frankly, I doubt that SkyMatter is in any way shady or underhanded... their support seems a pretty hardline approach. I will most likely invest in their software, I would just feel better if they met me halfway and I didn't have to do it with my fingers crossed. __________________ Shirts, MousePads, Stuff / The Gallery / Videos / Blog

23rd December 2006, 05:22	#35 (permalink)
Nate Owens Doodlin' Dude Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Carolina, USA Posts: 1,013	Good points all around, Zaxxon. I need to grab that baby before it jumps in pricing. Glad to hear their (private) forum is active and good. Will you post some of your Mudbox WIPS and finals here at Polyloop? Later, Nate __________________ Shirts, MousePads, Stuff / The Gallery / Videos / Blog

16th December 2006, 00:32	#23 (permalink)
zaxxon NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 117	Hey Nate, Skymatter has alluded to an upgrade path, but not sure what it is. For the time being I'm working on some personal animation projects with no commercial intent, this will be a good learning experience with the software, then we'll see. As to Modo, I also own that, primarily to UVWrap and paint, but honestly the complexity of the workflow (to me) is a bit off putting (not as totaly ass-backwards as ZBrush though). But Modo is powerful, and the renderer is superb and sublime. I think that Brad Peebler of Luxology was upfront that the preview of Modo's sculpt abilities were announced in response to Mudbox's availability, and was calculatedly 'premature'. I suspect it will be awhile before it's ready for release. Silo is a different story, I still prefer Hex as a base modeler (heresy, I know), so what the NEVERcenter guys come up with will get my serious attention, the Mirai navigation mode is very appealing to this ex-Mirai guy. Looking forward to see'n the doodlin' dude on the Luxology forums!

17th December 2006, 00:07	#24 (permalink)
DoctorLister Spline Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36	Someone from Skymatter posted in a thread on CGtalk that the upgrade path from Basic to Pro would cost $395, which would make the final cost about $45 more than if you bought the Pro version in the first place. I don't think it's a good practice to charge more than the difference on an upgrade path, I would have bought the Basic now and upgraded later if it didn't cost me more in the long run.

17th December 2006, 20:49	#26 (permalink)
DoctorLister Spline Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36	The forums for Mudbox at Skymatter are closed to the public, you have to buy the software to get access. All the reports on how great the software is for sculpting got me excited to buy it, since Zbrush is a bit of a pain in the neck for me to wrap my head around the interface. But several things like the extra charge to upgrade from Basic to Pro, no demo, no refund, the complete lack of any phone or email to reach anyone at the company, etc. have caused me to be wary of their business practices. I get the impression that they had a good team for developing the software but don't really have anyone good at the business end, so I worry that I might shell out $650 for a product and then never be able to reach someone if I have a problem. I'm guessing the lack of refunds is based on the fact that you can't really return software, so this prevents people from buying the program, asking for a refund, and never actually deleting the software. I also think they don't have the savvy to set up a mechanism for handling returns.

19th December 2006, 01:56	#28 (permalink)
transient Extrusion Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 171	There's nothing fishy or weird about this type of scheme. I think the toasters analogy is interesting, because this has what most 3d programs have become to many people, unfortunately. A "major computer company" (don't want to tempt fate) used to bill my father out at US$200 + per hour to support their business customers. It's standard practice in business to have these kind of support deals. I think many users these days aren't seeing the bigger picture, as they're hobbyist types who don't understand the hassles and costs involved with tech support, particularly in industry. If Mudbox had a phone number, they would be inundated with questions like "why does your support cost so much", and the price of the software would triple because of the extra manpower needed. I think everyone should be grateful hardcore tools like this are now affordable to hobbyists, and try not to fret because the companies that distribute them don't behave like walmart.

19th December 2006, 02:48	#29 (permalink)
jbshorty proud to be a nurb Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: only in your mind Posts: 1,376	transient, i respect your point of view on this. However there are plenty of 3D programs (many of them cheaper than Mudbox Pro) which have proven that tech support can be (and should be) possible without charging for it. and just because a phone number is available, it doesn't mean that people will make a call. It's easier these days to e-mail for help. But they don't offer that either. And it's a valid reason for people to be concerned... I'm not worried about it personally because Mudbox is low on my list of considered programs. So don't worry. No fretting going on over here. Just raising a concern that people might want to be aware of before spending their money...

19th December 2006, 06:19	#30 (permalink)
transient Extrusion Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 171	That's fair enough. Most software companies at least have e-mail support, or some kind of ticket system, I wasn't aware Skymatter had neither.

21st December 2006, 03:09	#33 (permalink)
Sketchy Box modeling Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 317	Don't know exactly why it costs more than the undisputed Zbrush. You only have to check pixologic gallery for this in which there are literally hundreds of amazing pics done in Zbrush. Is it Mudbox's simplified UI or what? I still think at $649 and at version 1, it's shameless. Sorry, that's how I feel about it. ;-)

23rd December 2006, 02:11	#34 (permalink)
zaxxon NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 117	Sketchy, "shameless" seems a bit harsh. Mudbox is a high end utility tool for cinemagraphic and game work. The fact that this tool is available to the average 3D artist, rather than locked away as a proprietary utility by the big studios is very cool. The price of $299 is very reasonable, the upgrade to pro is $395; but think about it - that's only $45 more than buying the pro straight away, makes sense to me. As to value for the cost; real working displacement maps to take to your 3D rendering,rigging and animation software. Created in a true 3D environment (not 2.5D via projection master in ZB), sculpt and texture dense meshes with full OGL display, the ability to layer, to use 16 bit alpha maps (32 bit in pro), an interface that is consistent with other tools in your pipeline, works for me. What other soft does this now, arguably none, ZB while you can create wonderful stuff, is still an odd duck, Silo isn't ready for prime time, Hex is broken, and Modo is offering pie-in-the-sky. As to support: the forums are great, admins are there regularly and are very helpful, not to mention there are some real power users hanging out. The paid support is intended for the guys using this as programmed for: production studios. I own this soft, and consider the $299 to be money very well spent.

23rd December 2006, 06:11	#36 (permalink)
zaxxon NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 117	Ola Doodlin' Dude! Mudbox is as slick a soft as I've used in a looong time. The manual is clear and informative, there's about 420 megs of videos, some by Dave Cardwell (WETA). The interface is seamless, with maya navigation and lightning quick opgl. The utilities within Mudbox are straightforward and extremely powerful: arbitrary mesh displacements, local subdivision, real 3D layers that can be blended and masked, blended displacements for morph target transitions, and sure to be more that I haven't seen yet. Here's an image that I've resumed work on. Modeled in Hex and being displacement sculpted in Mudbox. Attached Thumbnails

24th December 2006, 08:06	#37 (permalink)
Sketchy Box modeling Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 317	Just makes me wonder why the scant info on their website. They can't even show a full 3-minute video demonstration of the app. Their forum is inaccessible. There's no demo/trial version. It's as if they're trying to hide something.

24th December 2006, 17:28	#38 (permalink)
jbshorty proud to be a nurb Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: only in your mind Posts: 1,376	Not showing something good is not exactly the same as hiding something bad. But these guys at Skymatter obviously have a "pay to play" attitude.Which is a bit of a manipulation over potential customers. I would like to see them be a bit more open. What they are selling doesn;t require such a level of secrecy...

24th December 2006, 17:37	#39 (permalink)
zaxxon NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 117	Hey Sketchy, I think I understand where you are coming from. But in truth, there's nothing being 'hidden'. The forums are closed to non-registered owners (my opinion) because this is the principal 'support' for users. Skymatter is aware that the beta was heavily pirated, this is not a new idea, e-onsoftware has a similar setup for registered users. As to the website having 'scant' info, well that is a matter of opinion. The gallery alone gives you some idea of what the software can do. The overview and posted videos are very good. The accolades from industry leaders in 3D modeling, the praise from high level reviews. And, remember, this was created by working artists, not a marketing company. I have the soft, it works as advertised (the glitches that are there are more akin to a mature program than a 1.0 rev.) Once again, for $299 bucks american, this is great value. Keep in mind that the 'industry' has followed the development of this soft for some time. The Guys at WETA were beta testing the next rev of ZB, and evidently not real pleased with the limitations and directions it was headed in. They needed this type of tool, and started developing mudbox 'in house'. So the marketing buzz has grown thru skymatter's choice of beta testors and the work generated, voila! instant customer demand upon release. myself included.

24th December 2006, 17:53	#40 (permalink)
zaxxon NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 117	JBShorty, happy holidays, may the spirit of the season linger for all of us. Obviously I'm acting the part of a fanboy here, so be it. I don't think Skymatter needs to promote this product in a traditional way. I suspect that most major studios added seats upon MB's release, and the 'hobbyist/solo artist was offered the 'bone' of the $299 version as a 'paid' test. I had the opportunity to have some hands on, so I'm not discounting anyones cynicism about the lack of a demo, but the betas were 'out there' and could not have hurt the initial sales of 1.0, I hope there is a demo sometime soon, better believe pixologic is not keen on the idea though. Honestly my knowledgable friend, you would enjoy the interface and the intelligence of this program. The coding seems very tight, optimized for response and output. There I go, fanboy mania... On my 2 gig athlon 3800 winXP64 with NV7600/256 I can scuplt smoothly with over 4 million polys. The image posted was 3.8 million polys and rotated/zoomed very smoothly. The brush tools working very close to real time, impresses the heck out of me.

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