3dXtract Officially Goes Cold.

[JuST]

@Lemo: Haha, 42! True!!!
This is the best answer ever!

[gugesbri]

Originally Posted by tuckersaur

As a fellow long time Mac user, I feel Carl's pain. I think where he is coming from (about DAZ) is that Hex2 is a piece of junk on the Mac right now. His e-zine has been a huge boost to Eovia products over the years and he has done nothing but good for the Carrara and Hex community.

I too pre-ordered hex2 with great anticipation of the usual quality product that Eovia delivers to its customers. When the DAZ buyout came what we got was something rushed out the door and incomplete. Knowing that DAZ users were getting hex2 even before loyal pre-order customers (due to server problems in France) and eventually downloading a very buggy software (after all these happy DAZ users who paid next to nothing for it) probably really made Carl really mad. I know I was.

I converted that anger into something practical. Once I finally got my pre-order copy I saw what we got looked like an alpha (not even a beta), I emailed Bob and asked for a refund of my $99.00. They cheerfully refunded my money. As a DAZ platinum club member I bought hex2 for $1.99. Less than $2.00 is fine for a buggy piece of software. I suggest you do the same thing Carl. But I understand if you are not already a DAZ member, then there is no deal for you. Hopefully, the real bugs will be gone by hex 2.1.

I understand Carl's anger. On the Mac, Hex2 is spectacularly buggy. Carl is a Mac user who has done great PR and goodwill for Eovia. Now DAZ gets to cash in on all that free goodwill and they reward him with the usual Mac user shaft. I will say that DAZ is pretty good about supporting Mac users, and they usually respond with good fixes. I think all this buyout happened way too fast and hex2 just wasn't ready yet.

I hope Carl will read this and get his money back. I hope he will re-start his e-zine with or without DAZ's backing. I know as a long time Carrara user, I would be happy to write a tutorial or two.

Scott

Great response Scott.
Lets all pray Carl starts up his e-zine again.
We all need it.

[CarlDesmond]

Anyone here have bit torrent?

Try the torrent file here: http://www.3dxtract.com/cfforum/file...ct_all.torrent

[CarlDesmond]

So, it seems to be working for somebody... 1 peer so far (17 days to download)!!! Wahoo!!! Need more peers! Maybe Thomas can help this out...? Hmmm...

BTW, I love the fact that my cryptic message seemed weird. If I "complained" as I have in the past the same thing happens... The PR machine runs and we get buggy software. I love the fact that the postings generated and revealed the issues themselves...

DAZ/EOVIA paid attention and I am happy for that. It's not about the money at all. It was about supporting US (the users)... I hope that things change in the future.

Thanks all

Carl

[Vanish]

Originally Posted by CarlDesmond

BTW, I love the fact that my cryptic message seemed weird. If I "complained" as I have in the past the same thing happens... The PR machine runs and we get buggy software. I love the fact that the postings generated and revealed the issues themselves...

I realize this will likely make me unpopular, but I've never let that stop me from speaking my piece. DAZ has the absolute best customer service of any company I've ever dealt with. The Hex2 program is 100% Eovia. DAZ picked up the company as the release was being rushed out the door, so faulting them for the current state of the program is folly.

As for Hex2 being "unusable" on a Mac, I can only assume you do some extreme actions while modeling, or your setup has some issues. I have been using Hex2 on my Mac since it's release and it's certainly usable. I've created several models and it hasn't crashed yet. Is it bugproof? Absolutely not, (and yes I am annoyed at some of the issues) but it IS perfectly usable. Fatalistic statements like that do NOT help resolve the issue.

Seeing your posts from the moment the DAZ acquisition was announced to now, all I can assume is that your real complaint is that someone moved your cheese. I'll grab your torrent later and watch it. I hope it's something valuable and poignant.

BTW - Thomas, thank you for keeping your site and forums going. It is easily the most valuable resource I've found for Hex!

[CarlDesmond]

Vanish,
Good points... I do understand that not everyone feels the same way I do. It's a matter of using the programs for hobby or professional (in production) type of work. I can't rely on the program to perform as promised and that's why I didn't want to support the program at the same level I had in the past. Don't get me wrong, I still like the programs and will continue to use them. My advocacy for the use of the programs have changed and I won't recommend them to anyone in a professional environment. I also won't sit back and let the problems go unnoticed/unheard either. Why should I praise either company for letting them release with known issues? I spoke my peace/opinion and I am done.

Nobody moved my cheese. You are still popular (well, your one post is questionable)... I simply spoke my mind too. I hope I am not unpopular as well?

[Vanish]

LOL! If I'm popular anywhere it's news to me. (I've been lurking here forever. First post though, huh?)

I agree both companies need to have their feet held to the flames to correct the issues. Whether you support the programs the same going forward or not is your decision. My issue, I guess, was how you went about lodging your complaints. Until today I hadn't commented on it, and I did so only to put out there that some of the statements you've made aren't wholly correct. For most people that's not a big deal, but because you command such a following from your past efforts people are more prone to simply believing what their reading without a thought that you perhaps didn't mean the statement with the finality in which it came across.

As for moving your cheese, well... it does seem like you've been upset since the DAZ announcement and as though you haven't given them a chance to even get acclimated to the Eovia product line before declaring their handling poor, etc. That's what led me to that comment.

[shaunmckinnon]

I think I agree with Vanish in that its really not unusual of Eovia to approach a product this way. The first release of Hex 1 and Carrara 5 were both a little buggy as well. I imagine all software has issues, but seriously. If a program contains a lot of bugs, and they are KNOWN, then you resolve those issues first, then release the product. I really wonder if DAZ was fully aware of the products they had purchased. If the were fully aware of the issues they contained.

I do wonder though: if you do PROFESSIONAL 3D for production, why do you use such a hobbyist software? I know that if I was professionally involved in 3d, and not just for the odd website i produce, I'd be purchasing one of the giants software suites. Like Autodesk, Maya, or Cinema 4d. I would rather have the complete package and control of 3D Studio Max, with the beautiful rendering engine, and physics and particle engines out the wazoo. (makes me drool!!! i always take advantage of a 30 day trial so I can oogle it).

That's a good question. Why do we use Carrara to render and assemble, and Hex to model? Why did everyone choose these softwares over the industry giants??? Honestly, Blender and Wings3D, with a lot of practice and tutorial scouring, can do sometimes even better then what you can do with Carrara. Just curious. Why did everyone head this route for their production, or hobbyist needs?

[jval]

>...if you do PROFESSIONAL 3D for production, why do you use such a hobbyist software?

I think we read too much into the word "PROFESSIONAL". A professional doesn't necessarily use the state of the art. He or she doesn't even have to be very good although pros usually are if they want to stay in business. The single *neccessary* difference between the 3D professional and the hobbyist is that the former makes money at it.

Perhaps the more important question is if Carrara (or Blender or Wings3D) gets the job done for someone in a suitable and timely fashion why should an alternative even be considered?

Technically speaking I guess I'm a pro as I've made money at this. But not much and very rarely as I do not pursue it. I consider myself a hobbyist and one who has much to learn of the craft. Why did I decide upon Carrara? Not because it was the ultimate piece of software but because it offered all I needed and was affordable. I do not mean affordable in simple dollars. I mean affordable in terms of the learning time I am willing to spend to get reasonable results. I think this is one of C's greatest strengths- the ability to achieve 90% of what the "top dogs" offer with 20% of the effort. You can *always* get around the missing 10%- all you need is a bit of imagination.

- Jack

[chrisd]

Well said Jack.

[gugesbri]

Originally Posted by shaunmckinnon

I think I agree with Vanish in that its really not unusual of Eovia to approach a product this way. The first release of Hex 1 and Carrara 5 were both a little buggy as well. I imagine all software has issues, but seriously. If a program contains a lot of bugs, and they are KNOWN, then you resolve those issues first, then release the product. I really wonder if DAZ was fully aware of the products they had purchased. If the were fully aware of the issues they contained.

I do wonder though: if you do PROFESSIONAL 3D for production, why do you use such a hobbyist software? I know that if I was professionally involved in 3d, and not just for the odd website i produce, I'd be purchasing one of the giants software suites. Like Autodesk, Maya, or Cinema 4d. I would rather have the complete package and control of 3D Studio Max, with the beautiful rendering engine, and physics and particle engines out the wazoo. (makes me drool!!! i always take advantage of a 30 day trial so I can oogle it).

That's a good question. Why do we use Carrara to render and assemble, and Hex to model? Why did everyone choose these softwares over the industry giants??? Honestly, Blender and Wings3D, with a lot of practice and tutorial scouring, can do sometimes even better then what you can do with Carrara. Just curious. Why did everyone head this route for their production, or hobbyist needs?

There is not such thing as professional or Hobbyist software.
It the person that uses the software that creates beautiful work, not the other way around.

There are production houses that use affordable software like Animation Master, Carrara and Hexagon to do work because after a while, purchasing too many licenses of high end programs becomes less cost effective.
They would much rather produce with talented people and affordable software, then they tell their clients that they use state of the art high end software in order to mark-up (and they do mark-up) the cost of their services.

[shaunmckinnon]

umm...i'm confused. I would think that cheaper software would be less efficeint for a production company. You would assume that the larger, more expensive softwares would lessen production time, and increase usability and functionality. After all, when you go to university, it's not Carrara or Hex that's in there arsenol, it's 3ds max, and maya, or even more elaborate pricey ones. Why would universities waste time training people to use software that they're not going to use? Thats like somebody using GIMP to replace Photoshop. or using Open Office to replace Microsoft Office. Certainly its cost effective, but it's not productive or effieceint to have to retrain personnel to use these softwares.

[shaunmckinnon]

I do agree that the seperation between hobbyist and professional really is employment. There are many hobbyist I see on this forum that really should do this professionally. They're amazing artists, and their work would benefit the industry.

[gugesbri]

Originally Posted by shaunmckinnon

umm...i'm confused. I would think that cheaper software would be less efficeint for a production company. You would assume that the larger, more expensive softwares would lessen production time, and increase usability and functionality. After all, when you go to university, it's not Carrara or Hex that's in there arsenol, it's 3ds max, and maya, or even more elaborate pricey ones. Why would universities waste time training people to use software that they're not going to use? Thats like somebody using GIMP to replace Photoshop. or using Open Office to replace Microsoft Office. Certainly its cost effective, but it's not productive or effieceint to have to retrain personnel to use these softwares.

As a former teacher I can tell you that most colleges and universities have no idea about how to purchase software, or, research what is currently being used in the creative industry. They get one instructor or salesperson to song and dance them with some suggestion of software they should purchase, and, next thing you know, the director of some art or cg department is writing a check for software that he or she will never understand or use.

Production companies themselves are always looking for low cost alternatives to high priced industry standards. Case in point, "Gimp".

Sometime back, the Hollywood cg community petitioned Adobe Systems to share the source code that is used in Photoshop so that they could create a version of Photoshop that is catered to the needs of the entertainment industry. Wisely, Adobe turned them down because they felt sharing the Photoshop source could lead to disastrous effect for Adobe Systems, Inc., not to mentioned the legal nightmare it would cause being that most high end cg houses in Hollywood have their own in-house programmers that would start mixing Adobe code with open source/GNU code. In the end both sides would be fighting about who owns what code and how it can be used. They would be stuck in court for years trying to resovle ownership of code.

So the Hollywood cg community turned to "Gimp" because it is free and can be re-tooled with no legal hassles. In the end the only thing a person using and re-tooling "Gimp" would have to do is share what they have done to Gimp with the opensource community (which means "everyone").

And they did.

They created a cg/Hollywood specific version of "Gimp" which is now called "CineGimp" and is available to everyone. They avoided the legal hassles they would have had with Adobe and are using CineGimp effectively in their everyday tasks.

Gimp is every bit as good as Photoshop. I've been using Photoshop since version 2.5. As far as I am concerned, v3.5 and 4.1 were all I needed. Since those versions, Adobe has turned a once beautiful artistic/production tool into bloatware. I've used every version since then. Great program, I just don't need the majority of the bells and whistles that they've crammed into the program. The old joke about Photoshop is "how many plug-ins does a person need to create a drop shadow?" and believe me, through out the years I have had people argue that drop shadows can not be created in Photoshop.

If many folks took the time to visit or work for production houses (as an intern, part-time, even for free, I've made many great connection in my career doing work for free) or any creative industry, they would witness first hand what it takes to run a cost effective business and opposed to a "hyped-up business". In the end many companies use what ever is out there to get the job done, from the most expensive to the cheapest.

It's all about making money and saving money so that we can continue to "make money".

[CarlDesmond]

Originally Posted by jval

>...I mean affordable in terms of the learning time I am willing to spend to get reasonable results. I think this is one of C's greatest strengths- the ability to achieve 90% of what the "top dogs" offer with 20% of the effort. You can *always* get around the missing 10%- all you need is a bit of imagination.
- Jack

Good call. This is what I mean. I use Carrara and Hex to achieve goals for my clients. If I can no longer achieve those results in a timely manner with minimal effort then the programs no longer serve the need. Having "buggy" software over the last two offerings makes it difficult to rely on these programs to produce timely/reliable projects for myself and my clients. Okay, now I am done. ;)