Artzone announcement RE DAZ & Eovia

[Naes3d]

I'm also a Corel suite user. It was CorelDREAM 3D that introduced me the Raydream concept. I kind of wish I had went that direction from the beginning.

You might be intersted to know that Carrara exports to the PhotoPAINT format (including alpha channels and GBuffers). It also imports the OpenNurbs format that Rhino uses. You would enjoy a lot of synergy with your current products if you gave Carrara another look.

[ronjurman]

Originally Posted by Naes3d

I'm also a Corel suite user. It was CorelDREAM 3D that introduced me the Raydream concept. I kind of wish I had went that direction from the beginning.

Ya, I bought CorelDraw/CorelDream 3D also. Such a long, ... time, ... ago.

rj

[Organiques]

My only hope is that DAZ would take a hands off approach when it comes to Carrara's development which is already ongoing from what I've read. In other words, keep their other business away from it and give the dev team an unlimited amount of freedom. Carrara and Hexagon users have one goal in mind: that is to create original graphics the best and economical way possible, not to mention ease of use.

BTW, I am buying Hexagon 2 when it comes out. I still have to decide whether to start with Carrara or not. Perhaps when its next version comes out.

[RAMWolff]

I'm quite sure that DAZ will at least have the team get Carrara and Hexagon DAZ Studio ready for compatibility between programs . That's a given!! Other than that I'm hoping as much as anyone else that DAZ continues to support and allows the dev. team to do their thing while DAZ's dev team does what they does best .... content and DAZ Studio.



All the best

Richard ;-)~

[KenSchae]

Originally Posted by Naes3d

I don't understand what people mean when they say 'based on DAZ's record'.

For my part on this one, I believe that DAZ has legitimately earned a less than exemplary record on release schedules (and I would put Microsoft, and many other software companies in this basket as well). I understand the history of Bryce and the fact that it needed a great deal of work; all the more because I am a programmer who has been in similar situations.

My gripe is an issue with project planning and communication. No one can dispute that DAZ communicated a release date for a minor update (5.5) that they missed by well over 6 months. They made the same mistake with DAZ|Studio - but with that effort I give them a great deal more slack because of their public beta program.

As a customer of theirs who is making financial and product decisions based on what is communicated to me, I can accept some kind of delays but these get to be quite excessive. And after a few months the communication boiled down to "very soon" and stayed that way for many months. "Very soon" is not 3 months from now.

With companies like Microsoft, I automatically assume that their products will be late by months so I make my decisions on that assumption; I now do the same with DAZ. My concern with this deal was that I purchased the pre-release of Hexagon based on my experience with Eovia and finding out the DAZ picked it up and immediately put it on the "very soon" list; made me a little miffed.

I do not consider DAZ to be evil, as some people do, and I am a customer of DAZ; but I do consider them less than competent at communicating accurate timelines. And I am well aware that this is a problem across an industry that I am a part of; but that does not mean that I have to accept it, live with it, or not voice my opinion about it. There are many good methodologies both for development and project planning that can help many companies be better at communicating real timelines. I know that this is a very simplistic statement, but if we don't communicate our issues as customers and IT people, then nothing will ever change.

If nothing else, do like Steve Jobs and Apple does with release dates. Keep it secret until you are ready to unleash it on the world then hype the hell out of it. If you don't publish a deadline to the public until you have met it, then you will never be late - and I will have nothing to complain about.

[KenSchae]

Originally Posted by Organiques

I don't buy the idea or excuse that Bryce was already in its worse state when DAZ bought it. That's the biggest crock I've ever heard. Why buy a defective product in the first place?

Companies do this all of the time; the question is whether there is a customer base in place and/or the product fits into a specific vision for the purchaser. In this case, I think that DAZ saw both a new set of customers that they could gain by the purchase and Bryce fit into their vision: one that is becoming clearer as they purchase more products.

I question how bad the code really was; I have owned the last three releases of Bryce and none seemed that buggy to me. Perhaps I never put that much strain on it to experience the bugginess that people speak of. My other question is in regards to the "old code" concept. What is old code? Given some of the apps that I have worked on, I am not sure this really exists. Sure Bryce may not be written in C++ using the latest OpenGL APIs and may be procedural rather than object-oriented (in fact I know nothing about their code base); but that doesn't make it bad code. I have seen many very very bad object-oriented applications written in the latest versions of .NET and Java.

I think the issue is really one of learning curve; you can't just pick up source code and "read" it like some programmers would have you believe. And there is the issue of project planning that I already talked about in this thread.

[Naes3d]

I am not a programmer (you should feel lucky), but I believe that I have heard in the past that Bryce had bloated code. I don't think that the code is 'bad' as much as it is based on old sensibilities. Ading things like HDRI and subsurface scattering will neccessitate a change in the way Bryce calculates its renders. But like I said, I am not a programmer.

I think that the biggest hurdle for DAZ is to update Bryce while keeping it's loyal users happy.A lot of people are expecting many big improvements with few changes which is not easy to do. When Bryce 6 hits the market, I will be interested to see how much they have accomplished.

I also understand what it means to wait too long for an update. I come from Caligari. I know a little about being 'baited and switched' from there too.So I realize having a professional face or more traditional approach won't necessarily make a company more 'preofessional'.

Last I heard, windows vista had been pushed back til next year. In fact, I don't know of an industry that doesn't suffer from missed release dates if there is some type of timetable involved in conducting business. Some companies handle them better than others though.

So far though, all I see is that DAZ is not immune to the same problems that plague other companies. If even the mighty engine that is Microsoft can (and has often) missed a release date, then it can't spell the end of Carrara simply because it was bought by a company that has missed a few release dates in it's past.

[pleonastic]

as a programmer myself i do buy the concept of old code. aside from advances in programming technique and human interface design, code that has been added onto since its original inception by a variety of programmers who work under deadline (and with different ideas of what good code should look like) becomes kludgier and kludgier, and consequentially harder to work with further. small bugs become more difficult to fix. rethinking one aspect of the program has to deal with the fact that there are tentacles into unforeseen corners of the code. just like DNA, it will contain more and more junk elements, and they won't be marked as such. it becomes a tangle, and anyone who is new to working with it will spend a considerable amount of effort trying to figure out what does what, and be wrong part of the time about the consequences of a change. old code will become buggier, slower, and a bitch to work with.

3 different companies' programmers have worked on it for 5 major releases, the program is more than 10 years old, and its scope has changed -- yeah i am convinced that bryce needs a codebase rewrite even without ever having seen its code. and i am not at all surprised that takes longer than expected -- it always does. the only way to come close to realistic timelines on major projects is by drastically overestimating across the board, because large production code is too complex for precise estimates. and in many situations management doesn't accept careful estimates; they have their own agenda. customers are always greedy for new features, and the competition makes promises we suspect they can't keep, but those might draw away our customers, and so we too make promises we can't keep. *ugh*. i hate this aspect of competition; it's destructive.

ergo, i don't see DAZ doing anything abysmally bad here. their communication could be better -- that, too, is par for the course, and if i could teach the industry one thing, it would be to just talk to its customers and keep them informed of a project's status regularly. yeah, some will grouse, some will blow hot air, some will choose to go with another product, but overall it'll go more smoothly if people know what's up instead of being left guessing.

[Organiques]

I don't have any clue as to how companies handle the upgrade timelines with respect to their userbases. The only company I know that is clear regarding this aspect is Robert McNeel's company. If you look at their website, Rhino 4's development is in stages, such as Phase 1, Phase 2, Phase 3 (Beta stage) etc. within a period of 3(?) years. The final phase of which is the definite release date. This is better than announcing the planned upgrade too early, then find that the promised date is impossible to meet. Result: disappointed users like what is happening now with Silo 2's release or Modo 201. Just recently, I heard the same complications with Caligari's release of TS7.

[schuubars]

Newtek learned a bit too recently, they want now make for each Full release a Open Beta Phase(Pre Orders).

Besides the Closed Point Release Beta phase.

i like that, besides are only full releases have to be paid for. (all Point Release are for free)

But the best example with to early announcements is NextLimit with Maxwell Render Engine.

[pleonastic]

something else i wanted to say in reply to somebody earlier in the thread:

i agree that none of us can look into the future, and it's therefore murky. here's why i think carrara will be different from DAZ's record on bryce (i presume you're talking about bryce, since their record on DAZ studio and mimic is pretty good):

bryce was a goner. old code. no development team came with it. only a cult following of a userbase. corel left bryce in limbo for much too long, allowing room for vue to catch up and surpass it. pure speculation on my part: DAZ didn't actually know exactly how much they bit off when they bought it, and it might have been a bad shock with a steep learning curve. and still, they breathed a little bit of life back into bryce.

compare and contrast: carrara comes to DAZ fully alive, with a vibrant user base, a solid development team, and a better position in the market than bryce. that is why DAZ wanted it, i am sure. it provides a great upgrade path for bryce. and it would make absolutely no sense for them to piss all that away for what you call "ready mades" (are you still dissing 3D content? please get over it, it's silly). i don't even know what that is supposed to mean in the context of carrara. carrara is for making content. why would anyone in their right mind downgrade it to something the company already owns?

also, from what i have seen, DAZ has interacted a lot with their users during the development of DAZ studio, taking their comments into account, and implementing quite a lot of asked-for features. they have a public bug tracker (i love public bug trackers). they just released the SDK. the program is very young, and DAZ is doing well by it. i would expect this type of relationship to extend to carrara and hexagon since it's successful.

that's why i don't think carrara users have a lot of reason to worry -- some, yes, but not a lot. i empathize with the worry, mind. any change in ownership unsettles things.

(disclaimer: i have no affiliation with DAZ. or eovia.)

[RAMWolff]

I'm sure most of you know by now.... DAZ has released Hexagon and it's for $1.99 for PC members and it's on sale like this until May 31st!!

All the best to you all!

Richard

[deadtom]

well i pre-ordered the upgrade two weeks ago and now i see that people who never heard of hexagon have already got there download for 1.99...im tired of waiting im going to sleep..mabe tommorrow will be better..just hope i dont have to wait in a long line..thank god for broadband

[deadtom]

its here and its wonderful yea!

[Organiques]

Originally Posted by deadtom

well i pre-ordered the upgrade two weeks ago and now i see that people who never heard of hexagon have already got there download for 1.99...im tired of waiting im going to sleep..

I've heard of Hexagon and was thinking of Silo or Modo. Now I didn't have to think. It's only $1.99. Thanks, DAZ.

[KhrisK]

Originally Posted by pleonastic

as a programmer myself i do buy the concept of old code.

Even if you buy that concept, which is not clear, the question still remains, "Why did DAZ buy it?" And how many years does DAZ need to release a major upgrade such as Bryce 6? Ten years?

[Naes3d]

Originally Posted by KhrisK

Even if you buy that concept, which is not clear, the question still remains, "Why did DAZ buy it?" And how many years does DAZ need to release a major upgrade such as Bryce 6? Ten years?

Actually, that question has been answered so many times it never ceases to amaze me that it keeps getting asked.

Alot of people were still using the program.
Alot of people were still enjoying the program.
DAZ was willing to take the risk to make it better.

From what I have read, DAZ has succeeded in making Bryce better, but not a 'VueKiller'. Last I heard, Bryce 6 was still on track for release this year, so we can all see what progress they have made.

[MatCreator]

Ill admit, it took me a while, but I too am "recovering" from this aura that Daz is "evil"... Ive stated before, that I think all this animosity stems from the fact that as Bryce has lost its popularity, it is a reflection of us and the tools we choose/use as artists, and that is what people find offensive... In our eyes, we feel that Daz has abandoned Bryce, and, in turn, us... I dont think the general populace is aware of the ongoings and intricacies that go on at Daz, and the "not knowing" is what bothers us. Maybe, after all this time, Daz does have some super duper plans for a Bryce 6 release. We dont know............. I for one, was shocked about the Eovia takeover, and I know you guys were too. That means they are capable of pulling a rabbit out the hat, and, from a business/professional standpoint, thats pretty slick, like them or not. Daz taking over Eovia?!? Thats friggin' HUGE, you have to admit, yet no one knew anything (almost no one :P)...

As a "devoted Brycian", in the very beginning when Daz took Bryce, we didnt know what to expect... As a matter of fact, any real Brycer wouldve been happy just to know it was going to last just a bit longer... We werent upset, we were just antsy for a Bryce 6... 5.5 came out instead, and that left many Brycians dissapointed

Im new to the Carrara "stuff", I purchased C3 1 week before the news, It was delievered at around 6, I got the news at 9, LOL, but I was already sore from Bryce, and was upset as I wanted to try "fresh new territory", maybe bump myself up a notch on the skill level.

My 1st reaction: "oh no, Im going through a dead end street w/o any brakes"...

I bought Hex 2 from Daz for 2 dollars, and that got me to thinking... Would I have ever owned such an awesome program if Daz didnt take over Eovia?!? What about that Daz Studio? I mean, its free, we shouldnt come off as ingrates, its actually quite comparable to Poser. New free content, sale after sale. I have alot to thank Daz for actually... I wonder if people in the 3D Studio Max community have the same distaste for TurboSquid and the like?!?

There are several forms of "prejudice" going on here...

1. the dissapointed, biased Bryce community (of which I belong :P)
2. the "professional" that loathes Poser and Poser content, regarding it as "novices tools" for kids and people who arent serious about 3D
3. the Carrara/Amapi/Hex Community who thinks their -status- is being downgraded having to associate w/ Poser users

Not to mention those who preordered their software. I can understand that feeling of "what the heck... wheres my money going now?!?"... When you put money down, you have all right to rant and rave :P

I think we need to relax and give them time... Its all about "us" now, and maybe it wont be so bad. I dont think Daz did what they did to become our enemy, thats just not business sense, and so far, theyve come a long way... All that Zygote stuff, to buying Bryce and now Eovia... That says something about them... Not to mention your community prolly just doubled its population in the past week alone

[KhrisK]

Corel aquired Bryce 4 from MetaCreations around April 2000. About a year later, they came up with Bryce 5 with tons of features. DAZ aquired Bryce around June 2004. They came up with version 5.5 almost two years later. Go figure. People who cared enough to see Bryce elevate to a different level realize there's no need to incessantly harp on it now. The past is past, let's give DAZ a chance. Riight. Let's all worship DAZ and the heck with the doom and gloom naysayers. They're useless in these kinds of discussions. Right.

[Corndog]

blah blah blah... I liked it the way it was... blah blah blah
The way things were handled as in the transition announcement etc was terrible.
As for doubling the community.. I don't want 10 million members and I do not like to use what everyone else is using