Artzone announcement RE DAZ & Eovia - Page 2 - Polyloop

toonman · 26th April 2006, 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpilgrem

"DAZ" is a well-known brand name in the UK ... for soap powder. Check out: http://www.dazwhite.co.uk/index.html to get a flavour of its 'brand values'. As the site says: "Daz has been delivering great family laundry results for over 50 years!"

LOL

toonman · 26th April 2006, 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Rego

Another big facet to this announcement is... Why did Eovia sell-out? If both companies were privately held and it "looked" like Carrara and especially Hexagon were selling well, WHY did Eovia sell?

That's a good question. Can someone from Eovia or Daz answer this?

Naes3d · 26th April 2006, 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by toonman

That's a good question. Can someone from Eovia or Daz answer this?

I doubt you would get the answer you want to hear. The bottom line is someone thought it would be a sound business decision.

Given the direction e frontier is taking Poser (integration with Shade, and Vue) it shouldn't surprise anyone that DAZ chose to buy Eovia. Daz's ability to market to Poser customers was shrinking and will probably continue to shrink with future versions of Poser. It seems that renderosity is offering more content for Jessie and James than Vicky and Mike. Not to mention there is synergy between the apps' history and functionality. If not for the perception associated with DAZ this should seem to be a no brainer.

DAZ says that some of their content creators use Lightwave and Modo. If DAZ takes the stance that they would like to use their own software to develop their content that says to me that we should begin to see some of the Modo and Lightwave sensibilities migrate into Carrara and Hex. What does it say if you can't use your own software internally to create content? I think we are going to see more LW functionality in Carrara and more Modo in Hex in the future. That is me speculating though.

_Spectre · 26th April 2006, 09:51

Quote:

and more Modo in Hex in the future

...And this will be an end of Hexagon. I pray that DAZ does not advance in spoiling Hexagon 2 and it will come out in time and without DAZ deadly influence.

And i don't understand one thing in this world. Why DAZ bought Carrara and Hexagon and does not bought Amapi??? If the things were opposite then it will be a glorious day - DAZ would kill Amapi and it does not make sense at all. But Carrara and Hexagon?! Let's guys prepare the Molotov coctails and bring them to DAZ office until it's too late.

pleonastic · 26th April 2006, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naes3d

It seems that renderosity is offering more content for Jessie and James than Vicky and Mike.

i agree with most of what you said, except this bit here. there was a recent thread at rendo about figure support, which showed very clearly that DAZ figures have by far the most content;the top 8 figures are all by DAZ. i counted content for jessi, james, and judy (e-frontier) myself:

3600 Victoria 3
1140 Aiko
213 Jessi
141 James
122 Judy

as you can see, there's really no comparison.

anyway, yes, it's obvious why DAZ bought eovia; it's quite brilliant from their point of view. i don't know why eovia sold; i can only presume that it was profitable. i do hope DAZ doesn't screw with hexagon -- while i am primarily a maya user (my company programs add-ons for it), i've loved hexagon at first try, and have been eagerly looking forward to 2.0. i'm not worried about that version; it ought to be in code freeze right now. but i wonder where it will go from there, and i've had high hopes for it because it's ... you know ... different; exciting. and if indeed only part of the dev team will stay on that's reason for some concern.

i wouldn't worry too much about carrara; it will obviously become the DAZ flagship all-in-one app, and its vision is pretty well-charted. it'll probably get better integration for poser content, and that's not a bad thing -- if you don't use poser content, you don't have to care. though maybe you would care about dynamic hair and fur, eh?

as for the "PROs" looking down on the DAZ name -- get serious. those who wail about that must not know any pros, because actual pros (hi!) use the tool that's best suited for the job whenever they can. and just because 90% of poser users create vacantly gazing naked vickis with a sword in a temple doesn't make all 3D content crap. don't be such snooty snobs, or i'll laud my maya over your carrara.

jtbullet · 26th April 2006, 15:19

Well said, Pleonastic! I see this as a great boon to desktop animators, hobbyists with a story in their head. Because, and all of you must know this, plot and story will win out over graphics anytime! You know what guys? I use Carrara as a professional 3d animator. I do forensic visualization, environmental visualization, and now defense contractor modeling(spec ops tactical equipment), using, pause, Poser. True, I dont render using poser, but I have made a lot of money in the last 3 years using DAZ content. As a midrange app(approaching the low end of the high range) Carrara, is especially suite for this kind of slightly less than photoreal rendering and for business graphic illustration. Face it. It doesnt have renderman/mental ray abilities, and it doesnt have the workflow usually associated large studio apps. My point is this:
Carrara wasn't hitting the uber high-end anytime soon anyway. But it was/is the most complete single solution for a person to operate and do 3d work. And yes its quality is getting better, but it is still a long way from implementing some of the higher end features of xsi, maya, and max(mostly advanced rendering, materials, and rigging systems, I think.) I think it's closest direct competition is Cinema 4d. Now, if you want to get the carrara/hexagon toolset imbedded into the community, integration with daz is a great thing. People will get tired of tryign to jump from poser to whatever other app they are wanting to render in. They will like that hexagons tools will increase to include poser specific(but probably actually character specific)content creation tools. Once you do this, you seperate from being a authoring tool and move into being a development tool. Add in a few game specific features, and you bring interactivity into the mix. Modders will flock to your door, if you build good hookups to popular engines.
If carrara/hex/daz focus as development tools, then they have a much longer shelf life than if they simply keep adding stuff like, dynamic hair, cloth, etc, just more features. But if you add in a character rigging system that is useable and intuitive, itll sell a million more copies than a new version with a cloth simulator. Really it needs to be a complete physics engine that handles hair, cloth, soft bodies, cloth or hair on their own are simply too small of a vision.

RAMWolff · 26th April 2006, 18:42

Thank you both, Pleonastic & jtbullet for the great read and info!!

Richard ;-)~

Locki · 26th April 2006, 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Spectre

...And this will be an end of Hexagon. I pray that DAZ does not advance in spoiling Hexagon 2 and it will come out in time and without DAZ deadly influence.

And i don't understand one thing in this world. Why DAZ bought Carrara and Hexagon and does not bought Amapi??? If the things were opposite then it will be a glorious day - DAZ would kill Amapi and it does not make sense at all. But Carrara and Hexagon?! Let's guys prepare the Molotov coctails and bring them to DAZ office until it's too late.

Perhaps because Amapi was already existing before the creation of Eovia and owned by Laurent Billy, whereas Hexagon was created by and for Eovia.

philebus · 26th April 2006, 22:37

Spectre wondered why DAZ didn't buy Amapi, I think that it is because Amapi is geared more toward product design now, whilst Hexagon was intended for the character/illustration market. In this regard, the split of the two products could work for us Hexagon users. There are some features of Amapi, such as the ruler and NURBs, that were not going into Hexagon to maintain this product division for different types of users. Now that Hexagon is independant of Amapi, we may start to see these added in future versions.

Naes3d · 27th April 2006, 04:01

Thanks for straightening me out pleonastic, glad to see there are some peole willing to give it a chance.

Organiques · 27th April 2006, 04:38

When it comes to better Poser integration, the aquisition looks good, but when it comes to Carrara as a real deal complete package, its future is murky given DAZ's record. And why should they? They don't have to. Ready mades are available. Get ready for your cash.

Naes3d · 27th April 2006, 05:45

I don't understand what people mean when they say 'based on DAZ's record'.

Is it the Bryce thing?

DAZ isn't at fault for Bryce's condition. They are faced with a core code rewite. They have to do this while respecting the user base and habits established by people who have used the software over a decade. In the meantime they improved the software (marginally or not it was improved) and added a feature that made it easier for people to do what they were already doing.

Is DAZ evil because they took a program that many people didn't want to see die and gave it a home and pledged to do what no one else had a desire to do?

Is it the DAZ|Studio thing?

Is DAZ evil because they created a freely available software comparable to a program that cost hundreds of dollars and took a fairly long time to go gold? So DAZ's development time compares unfavorably to other apps that are developed from funds derived from the sale of the other apps? The development time on a free product is supposed to match that of a pay program? Is that realistic? So DAZ is evil because they devoted what resources they could to deliver a free program to it's userbase?

Or is it something I don't know about? Most of the negative comments come from those who have made clear that they have had no (and want no) dealings with DAZ or those who have unreasonable expectations from them.

What 'record' are we talking about here?

Organiques · 27th April 2006, 05:53

You know what, you don't seem to understand the user's concern. It's as if they're whining about nothing. You would be more credible if you give them an ear too.

Naes3d · 27th April 2006, 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Organiques

You know what, you don't seem to understand the user's concern. It's as if they're whining about nothing. You would be more credible if you give them an ear too.

I believe that is why I am asking. You would be more credible if you gave an answer to the question.

Naes3d · 27th April 2006, 06:06

If you want to know whether I am truly about the users concerns, hop over to the Caligari forums and read any of my posts. I gave them the better part of a decade to even look like they were interested in servicing the users as opposed to the owner's desires.

I know what it means to deal with a company that doesn't put the user first. I haven't experienced that with DAZ or Eovia.

Patrick210 · 27th April 2006, 07:16

Maybe this whole thing is because of the Bryce re-write deal. They started to re-write Bryce and realized they were just writing Carrara. So they decided to save some time and effort and just buy it.

Organiques · 27th April 2006, 07:26

I don't buy the idea or excuse that Bryce was already in its worse state when DAZ bought it. That's the biggest crock I've ever heard. Why buy a defective product in the first place?

I'm just an observer here. I am CAD person and am trying to look for a 3d artist's tool. I don't even like Carrara, you know the room concept and all. But from what I've read so far, it's easier and develops fast than the alternatives out there. Now, because of the recent developments, I'm giving the others another look other than Carrara.

Naes3d · 27th April 2006, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Organiques

I don't buy the idea or excuse that Bryce was already in its worse state when DAZ bought it. That's the biggest crock I've ever heard. Why buy a defective product in the first place?

I'm just an observer here. I am CAD person and am trying to look for a 3d artist's tool. I don't even like Carrara, you know the room concept and all. But from what I've read so far, it's easier and develops fast than the alternatives out there. Now, because of the recent developments, I'm giving the others another look other than Carrara.

So far, you have revealed that you don't know the software at all.

Bryce was once a Kai's product (as in Kai Krause) that became a Metacreations product then became a Corel product then became a DAZ product. Simple Google search will reveal this. Bryce has seen 4 developers, the major damage coming from Corel apparently.

The code is old, but not necessarily defective. New technologies don't fit well into the old architecture, which is why DAZ is trying to update the code without losing what made Bryce what it is in the first place.

It doesn't seem like you even know the history of the companies, much less the software, you are disparaging. So I find it hard to believe that you would question my credibility when I have owned a version of almost every single Metacreations product (at the time it was Metacreations) and you didn't even know that the code in Bryce was old.

You are free to hold your opinions, but maybe you should preface them with the fact that you know little of the softwares you speak of prior to expressing them.

Organiques · 27th April 2006, 08:00

It's the "ease of use" that I'm after. My main app is AutoCAD. Of course, we have all our own extra applications that we use to augment our daily office and home activities with. There comes Corel's Draw Suite, Painter and Paint Shop Pro instead of Adobe's alternative products. Naturally, you become attached to companies that make your life easier. I was aready a die-hard Paint Shop Pro user and doubly pleased when Corel bought it. I was waiting for Corel to come up with Bryce 6, then they sold it away to an unknown company that hasn't even registered in my radar screen. For some reason, I've stopped tracking Bryce's development.

We also have our other little applications such as MS Word, or Office. Now I discovered that Corel's WordPerfect Office is just as good if not significantly better than MS's. So you see how serious Corel is when it comes to producing world-class applications. I just hope it will stay in business longer than many struggling companies nowadays.

I've got Rhino, too, which is not unusual for an AutoCAD user. It used to be a plugin. The inteface has the same workflow. So there's no question there.

Then comes Sketchup which is now owned by Google. If there is any development team when it comes to ease of use in creating 3d graphics it's @Last's coders that I look up to aside from Corel or Autodesk. Like I said Carrara is not even the type that could be categorized in the "ease of use" group that Sketchup's UI and intutiveness belongs to. I was hoping that the @Last team would take over the whole 3d industry and give us more of their great ideas.

Naes3d · 27th April 2006, 08:09

I also find it ironic that a CAD user would find the room concept a bad thing.

In the architectural sense, rooms are the bread and butter. A single space is divided into multiple spaces (a room) that makes it possible to organize tasks more effeciently. You wouldn't put a toilet in the middle of the kitchen, so why would you necessarily want your animation tools in the same room as your modelling ones?

In a mechanical sense, CAD drawings often break a single object down into it's individual functions visually, which is supposed to illustrate how each indivivual piece can perform it's own task within the whole to bring about an end result. Basically, a space (a 'room' as it were) is carved out of a solid volume that allows a function to be performed in that space that links to another space (a 'room' as it were) where the results of that action are carried over continuing the prrocess until a final result is achieved.

Try thinking outside of the box, and you might see how you prejudices are limiting you.

26th April 2006, 18:42	#27 (permalink)
RAMWolff Dreamer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: RWC, CA USA Posts: 27	Thank you both, Pleonastic & jtbullet for the great read and info!! Richard ;-)~ __________________ Wolff On The Prowl

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26th April 2006, 15:19	#26 (permalink)
jtbullet Box modeling Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 237	Well said, Pleonastic! I see this as a great boon to desktop animators, hobbyists with a story in their head. Because, and all of you must know this, plot and story will win out over graphics anytime! You know what guys? I use Carrara as a professional 3d animator. I do forensic visualization, environmental visualization, and now defense contractor modeling(spec ops tactical equipment), using, pause, Poser. True, I dont render using poser, but I have made a lot of money in the last 3 years using DAZ content. As a midrange app(approaching the low end of the high range) Carrara, is especially suite for this kind of slightly less than photoreal rendering and for business graphic illustration. Face it. It doesnt have renderman/mental ray abilities, and it doesnt have the workflow usually associated large studio apps. My point is this: Carrara wasn't hitting the uber high-end anytime soon anyway. But it was/is the most complete single solution for a person to operate and do 3d work. And yes its quality is getting better, but it is still a long way from implementing some of the higher end features of xsi, maya, and max(mostly advanced rendering, materials, and rigging systems, I think.) I think it's closest direct competition is Cinema 4d. Now, if you want to get the carrara/hexagon toolset imbedded into the community, integration with daz is a great thing. People will get tired of tryign to jump from poser to whatever other app they are wanting to render in. They will like that hexagons tools will increase to include poser specific(but probably actually character specific)content creation tools. Once you do this, you seperate from being a authoring tool and move into being a development tool. Add in a few game specific features, and you bring interactivity into the mix. Modders will flock to your door, if you build good hookups to popular engines. If carrara/hex/daz focus as development tools, then they have a much longer shelf life than if they simply keep adding stuff like, dynamic hair, cloth, etc, just more features. But if you add in a character rigging system that is useable and intuitive, itll sell a million more copies than a new version with a cloth simulator. Really it needs to be a complete physics engine that handles hair, cloth, soft bodies, cloth or hair on their own are simply too small of a vision.

26th April 2006, 22:37	#29 (permalink)
philebus Spline Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: UK Posts: 37	Spectre wondered why DAZ didn't buy Amapi, I think that it is because Amapi is geared more toward product design now, whilst Hexagon was intended for the character/illustration market. In this regard, the split of the two products could work for us Hexagon users. There are some features of Amapi, such as the ruler and NURBs, that were not going into Hexagon to maintain this product division for different types of users. Now that Hexagon is independant of Amapi, we may start to see these added in future versions.

27th April 2006, 04:01	#30 (permalink)
Naes3d Box modeling Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 231	Thanks for straightening me out pleonastic, glad to see there are some peole willing to give it a chance.

27th April 2006, 04:38	#31 (permalink)
Organiques Vertex Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 22	When it comes to better Poser integration, the aquisition looks good, but when it comes to Carrara as a real deal complete package, its future is murky given DAZ's record. And why should they? They don't have to. Ready mades are available. Get ready for your cash.

27th April 2006, 05:45	#32 (permalink)
Naes3d Box modeling Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 231	I don't understand what people mean when they say 'based on DAZ's record'. Is it the Bryce thing? DAZ isn't at fault for Bryce's condition. They are faced with a core code rewite. They have to do this while respecting the user base and habits established by people who have used the software over a decade. In the meantime they improved the software (marginally or not it was improved) and added a feature that made it easier for people to do what they were already doing. Is DAZ evil because they took a program that many people didn't want to see die and gave it a home and pledged to do what no one else had a desire to do? Is it the DAZ\|Studio thing? Is DAZ evil because they created a freely available software comparable to a program that cost hundreds of dollars and took a fairly long time to go gold? So DAZ's development time compares unfavorably to other apps that are developed from funds derived from the sale of the other apps? The development time on a free product is supposed to match that of a pay program? Is that realistic? So DAZ is evil because they devoted what resources they could to deliver a free program to it's userbase? Or is it something I don't know about? Most of the negative comments come from those who have made clear that they have had no (and want no) dealings with DAZ or those who have unreasonable expectations from them. What 'record' are we talking about here?

27th April 2006, 05:53	#33 (permalink)
Organiques Vertex Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 22	You know what, you don't seem to understand the user's concern. It's as if they're whining about nothing. You would be more credible if you give them an ear too.

27th April 2006, 06:06	#35 (permalink)
Naes3d Box modeling Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 231	If you want to know whether I am truly about the users concerns, hop over to the Caligari forums and read any of my posts. I gave them the better part of a decade to even look like they were interested in servicing the users as opposed to the owner's desires. I know what it means to deal with a company that doesn't put the user first. I haven't experienced that with DAZ or Eovia.

27th April 2006, 07:16	#36 (permalink)
Patrick210 Pixar want to hire me! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 549	Maybe this whole thing is because of the Bryce re-write deal. They started to re-write Bryce and realized they were just writing Carrara. So they decided to save some time and effort and just buy it.

27th April 2006, 07:26	#37 (permalink)
Organiques Vertex Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 22	I don't buy the idea or excuse that Bryce was already in its worse state when DAZ bought it. That's the biggest crock I've ever heard. Why buy a defective product in the first place? I'm just an observer here. I am CAD person and am trying to look for a 3d artist's tool. I don't even like Carrara, you know the room concept and all. But from what I've read so far, it's easier and develops fast than the alternatives out there. Now, because of the recent developments, I'm giving the others another look other than Carrara.

27th April 2006, 08:00	#39 (permalink)
Organiques Vertex Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 22	It's the "ease of use" that I'm after. My main app is AutoCAD. Of course, we have all our own extra applications that we use to augment our daily office and home activities with. There comes Corel's Draw Suite, Painter and Paint Shop Pro instead of Adobe's alternative products. Naturally, you become attached to companies that make your life easier. I was aready a die-hard Paint Shop Pro user and doubly pleased when Corel bought it. I was waiting for Corel to come up with Bryce 6, then they sold it away to an unknown company that hasn't even registered in my radar screen. For some reason, I've stopped tracking Bryce's development. We also have our other little applications such as MS Word, or Office. Now I discovered that Corel's WordPerfect Office is just as good if not significantly better than MS's. So you see how serious Corel is when it comes to producing world-class applications. I just hope it will stay in business longer than many struggling companies nowadays. I've got Rhino, too, which is not unusual for an AutoCAD user. It used to be a plugin. The inteface has the same workflow. So there's no question there. Then comes Sketchup which is now owned by Google. If there is any development team when it comes to ease of use in creating 3d graphics it's @Last's coders that I look up to aside from Corel or Autodesk. Like I said Carrara is not even the type that could be categorized in the "ease of use" group that Sketchup's UI and intutiveness belongs to. I was hoping that the @Last team would take over the whole 3d industry and give us more of their great ideas.

27th April 2006, 08:09	#40 (permalink)
Naes3d Box modeling Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 231	I also find it ironic that a CAD user would find the room concept a bad thing. In the architectural sense, rooms are the bread and butter. A single space is divided into multiple spaces (a room) that makes it possible to organize tasks more effeciently. You wouldn't put a toilet in the middle of the kitchen, so why would you necessarily want your animation tools in the same room as your modelling ones? In a mechanical sense, CAD drawings often break a single object down into it's individual functions visually, which is supposed to illustrate how each indivivual piece can perform it's own task within the whole to bring about an end result. Basically, a space (a 'room' as it were) is carved out of a solid volume that allows a function to be performed in that space that links to another space (a 'room' as it were) where the results of that action are carried over continuing the prrocess until a final result is achieved. Try thinking outside of the box, and you might see how you prejudices are limiting you.