Modeling for bas relief

[H20diver]

Hi,

I searched for this topic but could not find anything. I apologize if this has already been answered.

I am interested in modeling for bas relief and cnc carving. I am interested in modeling scenes like: Animals in a forest setting etc.

What would be the best modeling approach for this? Should I start with nurbs and Blender? Or go with poly such as Hexagon or Silo? I tried Zbrush and projection master but this did not give me the detail I am looking for so I am going to start modeling.

Would these programs allow me to project a background image to model onto? Perhaps there is a better way to model?

I appreciate everyones input and time taken to answer these questions.

Thanks!

[Couerl]

If Zbrush didn't give you enough detail you are in serious trouble.

[H20diver]

Hi Courel,

Although I am sure Zbrush can provide great detail I could not get it from just using the projection master and an image. I did post over there asking how to take the image to the next level but unfortunately the response has been nil to none.

I want to understand and become proficient in modeling hence the question on nurbs vs poly when dealing with bas relief work.

I appreciate any help you can give.

Thanks

[Couerl]

Well, you can do this in poly, but it could take you quite some time to become proficient enough with the tools to do it. Nurbs is less suited for organic modeling and is best thought of for doing industrial design, where precision is wanted. When I think of relief's I think of the Frieze's on the parthenon and things like that, very ornate and detailed. You can do that in poly's, but if you're not a polymodeler as of yet you will have a pretty steep climb ahead before getting to where you want to go.

[H20diver]

Someone modeled this on the Modo forum. Amazing detail... this is why I am looking at poly modeling.

I'll follow your suggestion and start with poly modeling rather than nurbs. Would you recommend an application that I can start the long learning process, maybe something with plenty of available tutorials

Thanks again for taking the time to help.

[bwtr]

Have a good look at 3D Brush. Even so, there is a huge amount you can do to match that sort of thing in Carrara6Pro. Well, even back in Carrara5?

Unless I am forgetting, you should not have a problem doing this in Hexagon either?

[H20diver]

Thanks Brian - I'll have a look at these apps. I am eager to start.

I know there will be a signifigant learnign curve but want to ensure whatever app I start with will do the job as I will commit to learning this app fairly well before exploring others.

Thanks for your input!

[bwtr]

Going back over the posts, I agree with Couerl--Z-Brush probable is the best--but you don't need anything so complicated as that app. What you want to do is, really, pretty simple with many apps nowadays.
Price wise, and easiest to learn? Silo, Hexagon, 3D Brush?

I would start with the cheapest of those.

[H20diver]

Great! I'll start with one of these apps today. Through research I had narrowed it down to two of your recommendations, I'll also have a look at 3d brush.

Thanks for your help!

[Pete Exxtreme]

just an idea : if you have already all the 2D images, then why not go for some displacement mapping instead of modelling ? I don't know what's your final goal....

[H20diver]

Hi Pete Exxtreme,

I would love to go that route. I tried some displacement mapping in several applications to include Zbrush's Projection Master (I think this is their displacement mapping) but I cannot get the detail I am looking for.

Is it possible to use displacement mapping and then tweak the model? Is their a tutorial you could recommend that might apply to this?

Thanks so much for taking the time to post.

[rickei]

For projection mapping to work properly in Zbrush, you need 2 things. First... the object you are working on must be subdivided to the point that it can accept the detail you are trying to project on to it. second...your alpha brush must be high rez enough for projection master to displace it properly.
If you are trying to project onto a simple plane you will need to subdivide to to about a million pollys or more to get good detail

here is a little example I just did in about 5 min in Zbrush 2. using projection master. my tree alpha is too low res, but Zbrush has enough detail that you can see the JPG artifacts in my alpha brush.
this is 924,160 polys

[Couerl]

I wouldn't use 3Dbrush, it's more of a paint app as is ZBrush, if you want serious hard core geometry, Modo will get you there or Silo, Hex... Depends on how fanatical you are really. I think painting geometry is for sissies. ;)

[H20diver]

Rickei - That explains why my projection mapping did not work ... my plane was not subdivided enough. How much memory are you running to subdivide the plane 1 million poly's?

So, a clean image and million + polys are the ticket. I am going to play around with some images. Since the projection master turns this image into a polymesh it should be editable? Maybe I can start here and fine tune with additional modeling?

Couerl - I think I am going to try Silo for now ... I am pretty fanatical about image quality and I have always wanted to model. Rickei's image is not quite there but I am curious how far this image would go with with additional subdivision and a cleaner image.

The help on this forum has been great!

[jbshorty]

You're planning to tweak the model at +1,000,000 polys. Good luck with that! Give us a shout next year when you finish it!

Both Modo and ZBrush would be great for quickly sculpting something like those images. But honestly, what you get from this technique can produce an unnecessarily heavy mesh. You will have unnecessary geometry where you don't need it. And you will have not enough where you really need do it. So depending on what your design is, you might get better results by modeling it. It will just take longer to do it. And then of course you have the choice of Nurbs versus polys. I would probably use Nurbs (in Rhino). At least this way the final design can be optimally meshed before generating the toolpaths. If you create this as a sculpted mesh or subd, then you are stuck with a set # of polys. With Nurbs you would be free to remesh the object at any time, for best results on different size work... Also if you have Rhino 4 (do you?) then you could sculpt a grid in Modo or ZB, export that displacement texture and apply to a NURBS surface and extract a mesh at any density you need for CNC...

shorty

PS - real men sculpt stone! Isn't that right, Couerl?

[rickei]

Zbrush can handle a million poly on most any machine. I've got 2 gigs of ram, but I had Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Hex, Firefox, email, and a few other apps running when I did that test image this morning.

either way you do this, will require a bit of planning before you start. If you just start pushing and pulling polys around without a clear plan you will end up with lots of unneeded geometry. You could retopo with Zbrush or you may even consider, nurbs, though I don't work with them much, but I think you can remesh your object after you have a design that you like.

[rickei]

Shorty, you snuck that in while i was typing.

I agree. if you use displacement, that should be your final step. the poly count is way too high to work with later.

so what is your final intent? as shorty said, if you plan to go CNC nurbs could be a good plan.

[jbshorty]

Originally Posted by rickei

Shorty, you snuck that in while i was typing.

yes, that's what "she" said too

P.S. - Here is an image of image displacement in Rhino. You can see how the final mesh is less dense on areas of low curvature, and more dense on areas of greater curvature...

[rickei]

[H20diver]

Ok,

I see now where you are going with nurbs vs poly for creating mesh.

I did not know the difference between the two when utilizing mesh for cnc work. All I heard was that nurbs were good for hard modeling while poly was great for organic. I will be modeling mostly fluid wildlife scenes and animals... will nurbs suffice for that? I kept seeing these awesome reliefs and most if not all were being done with poly modeling.

I do not have Rhino but am running Mach 3, Vcarve and now Cut 3d from Vectric. You mentioned the ability to remesh nurbs based on the work piece while poly counts were non changeable. Why would you need to remesh nurbs based on the size of the work piece? Is this to increase resolution for larger carvings? Or to save file size by decreasing and increasing mesh just where you need it? I was going to model and scale up or down in cut 3d to change the size but it now sounds like it is not that simple.

Will nurbs give the desired results I need based on what I want to model and lastly Is there a modeling program out there you would recommend besides Rhino (I' d like to stay with my cam program)

Sorry for the 1000 questions but you guys are a wealth of information!

Thanks