Rhino-4

[Couerl]

So what does a $800.00 dollar program have that my buggy little $1.99.00 won't do? ;)

I'm just curious about the initial reactions, thoughts, observations, inspirations or just whatever you want to say about Rhino-4. Do you like it and why or do you think you got ripped off or is it worth it for the novice modeler to get?

Any thoughts or perspectives are welcome on Rhino here.

[Thomas]

I think it's not easy to do a comparaison between Hexagon and Rhino

[Couerl]

Hehe, ya I know. I just want to see what Rhino can do more or less.. Is it fast to work in, are people happy, that sort of thing.

I'm doing Modo demo for another 20 days or so, but so far I can't see why I need that either.

I have a hard time justifying $800.00 for a modeler, but I guess a lot of folks need that kind of accuracy or something. I'm just curious to know what that something is.

[First Gear Territories]

I've been using Rhino since the beta of version 1.

I found myself using it over the years to solve many of the problems which I had previously with the Ray Dream Studio/Carrara modeling tools.

At present, 99% of the characters and props seen in the artwork on my site is created with Rhino, from original physical sculptures that I have rebuilt in the application.

Have a look:

http://www.firstgearterritories.com/

Here is my working process:

http://www.firstgearterritories.net/...Code/INDEX.htm


Hope this helps!

[jbshorty]

Couerl, you are a troublemaker ... I agree with Thomas. It's really impossible to compare these 2 programs, since their objective as modeling programs is so different... From my point of view, the advancements in Rhino 4 can not be measured solely on the toolset (as many people would think several hundred new features, and improvements to nearly every tool is quite impressive already!). There have been major rewrites to the core of Rhino, to the display pipeline, to the SDK, and to the RDK. what this means is that new Rhino features (and plug-ins) will be developing faster than ever before. As i was told by one of the programmers "You haven't seen anything yet... " ...So let's look at some major areas where R4 has seen improvements:

**Curve creation - R3 already had very powerful tools for drawing curves. Now R4 takes this much further. New features such as Smart Tracking (inferred construction lines) make drawing super quick. Other new features include bezier curves, curve symmetry, adjustable blends up to G4, subcurve tools, curve booleans, soft editing, fixed length editing (like playing with string, i love that tool).

**Surface creation - History is now enabled for most surfacing operations (not sweep unfortunately, but there is a workaround). Surface blends are interactively adjustable up to G4, and you can add additional handles to develop non-linear blends. Blends can be chained across unjoined curves, and moved to any point along the chain... Some other nice features are mirrored symmetry across any axis, variable surface offset, extruding a curve along surface normal vectors (think of using Hexagon's stretch tool with "Normal" option to extrude a curve away from the surface)... Other nifty tools include soft moving of control points. For this, you can also use other objects to drive the movement. For example, select a curve as the ref object, set the influence radius, then move. The selected surface points will follow the movement to reveal a "curve" shape in the surface.

**Solid creation - History enabled for methods such as extruding a curve. New methods such as creating solids from interseting surfaces (manifold volume).

**Solid editing - Many improvements in this area. You can now boolean objects which share edes and faces. You can move holes, copy holes, rotate holes, delete holes, array holes. Draw a curve on the CPlane, and then place it as a hole in an object... there is direct editing of solid objects (limited mostly to untrimmed faces). Such as directly moving, rotating, scaling of edges and faces. This is not a history based object rebuild. Rhino actually moves the subobject entity... Variable fillets and chamfers have been added too. Add new handles where ever you need, slide them around if you like, grab radius handle and drag to set radius, or enter radius from keyboard... Other nice features for industrial designers are the Rib and Boss commands.

**UDT - As a modeler, this is R4's crown jewel. you can now morph and deform curves, meshes, surfaces, and polysurfaces! This is unlike any other Nurbs modeler, which depend on a history based rebuild. Rhino actually morphs and rebuilds the object. Import a nurbs model, and deform in Rhino... Deformations include stretching, bending, twisting, maelstrom (vortex), flowing along a curve, flowing from one surface to another, splopping on a surface (the new object can deform to new base curvature), and cage editing. For cage editing, you can use other objects as the control cage- including other surfaces, edges, selfedges, or curves). Or define a new cage object. Radius of influence can also be adjusted, so it can be applied to just one area of a solid model... combine these deforms with history enabled, and you can now model in planar space, and carry the changes to the morphed model... Morphs can be applied to HUNDREDS of objects at one time. this has saved me hours of complicated model work.

**Mesh Modeling - Lots of improvements here. Mesh Booleans, Trim meshes with Nurbs objects (and vice versa), project curves onto meshes, fill holes with mesh patches. I am sure there are more, although i don't use these mesh tools very often... Rhino has better mesh decimation tools than any other 3D program i've used. You can decimate by edge length, aspect ratio, face area, etc. Very useful if you have heavy meshes which you need to reduce for animating. Rhino of course has great tools for repairing bad meshes produced in other programs, necessary if you plan to manufacture the part or rapid prototype it.

**display pipeline - nearly every detail of the UI and display can now be customized. and i mean everthing, right down to seperate controls for adjusting edge thickness, edge color, naked edge display, seperate UV colors for isoparm display, backface display, backface culling, etc for any type of object and set individually within a custom shade mode. This list could go on and on and on. One thing not apparent to most Rhino users is the control for setting Antialias levels. That's a hidden gem, which McNeel doesn't promote as a major feature... Shading display modes can be assigned to individual objects within individual viewports.

**Real-time texture mapping - Texturing and environment mapping is all viewable in real time as you model, with no slowdown in redraw speed (not that i've seen). Textures can be projected across mutliple objects, you can move maps around just by grabbing the mapping widget and transforming with standard commands as if it were a real object. huge timesaver when compared to R3 mapping tools.

**New printing interface

**Better dimensioning and annotation tools

**"Line styles" for curve objects. You can also create custom styles. assignable by object or layer.

**Layer States can now be saved and restored (think of PS's Layer Comps). Go nuts and experiment with different material/layer arrangements.

**Object positions can now be saved and restored (no more arranging copies of objects for rendering )

**CPlanes can now be assigned to individual objects and refreshed at the touch of a button. There are many new tools for setting up Cplanes, and switching between them. Import/Export Cplanes from other model files.

**Dual Monitor support. Unrestricted viewport layouts. Floating viewports. Import/Export viewport layouts from other model files.

**You can now run a 3D printer directly from Rhino.

**import/export - i didn't think it was possible, but yes they have added new formats.

**every function of Rhino is now scriptable and nestable. McNeel has released a beta of a new script-editor called "Monkey" which debugs your scripts. If Rhino doesn't have the tools you need, then learn to write VBscript!

There are more 3rd party tools in development (not included with Rhino). Such as Penguin (McNeel's cel-shading and line-rendering engine). Penguin 2 (beta) operates in real-time within Rhino 4, and can be combined with other rendering engines for final output. McNeel is also developing the front end of Splutterfish's "Brazil" rendering engine. So it will be seemlessly integrated within Rhino's interface... there is also the developing T-Splines technology that will bring sub-d style workflow to organic nurbs modeling. T-splines also converts polygonal meshes to nurbs models in a single click. And the new TS Network Surfacing will build complete models from vast networks of curves... And as usual, if you own Rhino 4, you will be using the Rhino 5 beta as soon as the first alpha build is ready... Hurry up, Bob. It's been 2 weeks already !

OK, i sound like a salesman for McNeel now . But yes i do love R4. the price is now $995 (although it is being offered online for $845) so the price is quite high for the novice modeler. My suggestion is that if it's out of budget you can enroll in school and buy a student version of Rhino for just $195. Unlike other software, this is a FULL COMMERCIAL version of Rhino. You are allowed to use it for commercial work!!! So who ever said that school was a waste of time?!

[Couerl]

Wow, I had to read it twice. Thanks very much for all the details Shorty.
I echo Stu's remarks on wanting to see some screen caps and stuff, not because its mandatory or anything like that, just curious to see some modeling done in Rhino-4 and not just the website promo stuff.

I search around Google for different things a lot that might be interesting to model and I love Hex and all, but I do want something more powerful to grow into someday like Amapi or Rhino. When I look at sites like this I just get all teary eyed and wish I had such capability.
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/mo...S_Dreadnought/

Check out some of this stuff!

[Sketchy]

Good thingy about Rhino is that you can download a demo version that is no different from the licensed, fully functional one. It doesn't expire and it saves 25 times, which is more than enough for learning purposes. Since I don't have the time to explore it in depth, I have no compelling urge to buy it. I was tempted, though, when version 4 was offered for free once you buy Rhino 3, which in itself is just as powerful as any NURBS app out there.

There's no doubt that Rhino 4 is packed with features and has become more powerful than ever. Thing is, most of us will never going to use all of those features. If you're into a working environment where everything has to be precise to a fraction of a milimeter, then get Rhino. Otherwise, go for what you're comfortable with. Poly/subd is just as powerful as NURBS modeling.

I downloaded Rhino 4 just a couple of hours ago. It doesn't even require you to type an email address or put tick marks on those survey forms. You can actually skip them.

Since I've played with Amapi Pro 7.5 for some time. I was tinkering with Rhino 4 looking for a ONE VIEWPORT workflow, which I have learned to prefer like in Hex or Amapi. I still can't figure how. I doodled some primitives here and there, filleted edges, applied booleans, and so on. My initial conclusion is that Amapi does have its own unique strenghts. The Dynamic Geometry (DG) is one. How do you like applying fillets or chamfers, then change the size later? Or move the boolean difference and see the object updated in real time! Rhino 4 now has a HISTORY feature. I don't think it's as powerful as Amapi's DG.

[Thomas]

(the price of Rhino didn't increase?)

[jbshorty]

Originally Posted by Sketchy

Since I've played with Amapi Pro 7.5 for some time. I was tinkering with Rhino 4 looking for a ONE VIEWPORT workflow, which I have learned to prefer like in Hex or Amapi. I still can't figure how. I doodled some primitives here and there, filleted edges, applied booleans, and so on. My initial conclusion is that Amapi does have its own unique strenghts. The Dynamic Geometry (DG) is one. How do you like applying fillets or chamfers, then change the size later? Or move the boolean difference and see the object updated in real time! Rhino 4 now has a HISTORY feature. I don't think it's as powerful as Amapi's DG.

Sketchy - I am planning to post a link soon to download my complete R4 UI setup (including MANY self-written macros, shade modes, custom toolbars, file templates, etc). The main purpose of this UI was to enable a single viewport workflow. I never use multiple viewports anymore. I do everything in perspective view. Firstly, i have no docked toolbars anywhere. Secondly, i created one main toolbar can be opened with MMB click. All of my commonly used toolbars are accessed from there. There is also a unique hotkey assignment for each "sub"toolbar so you can avoid the main popup. the "sub"toolbars are consolidated versions of the standards. For example, all curve tools are in one palette. All solid tools are in one palette. Render/Lighting tools are in one palette. you get the idea... Combine this with RMB programmable context menus (i forgot to mention that new feature!) and the result is a bare-bones interface which I think is more similar to Silo than than it is to Rhino. In fact that was my plan, to emulate Silo for Nurbs modeling. I would encourage you to try it once it is posted (still busy writing new toolbars, and working on the documentation). You could just install my options.ini file and the toolbars which will cost you 2 saves. But i think that installing all of the UI components and shade modes will cost you about 20 saves. Not to mention that many of my macro-tools do things such as automatically saving Cplanes so you will quickly eat up your saves... If you want to enable a single viewport workflow, use CTRL+TAB to flip through the main viewports. Or run the command "_ViewportTabs" (located in the layout toolbar) which will allow you to select a new viewport by LMB clicking on the appropriate tab. RMB clicking on a tab will reveal options to create as many tabs you want with custom viewport names and Cplane assignments. I hope that helps you!

History - Rhino's method (Like Moi's method) is not really "History" but should be called "Associativity". It doesn't work on things like booleans or filleting. DG is a definite advantage of Amapi. In general, filleting can be done at the late stages of a model. Booleans are something i've learned to work around, but still wish for someting better. NPower has a plugin which adds parametric booleans and fillets to Rhino but it costs about $400 (ouch!)...

[jbshorty]

Originally Posted by Thomas

(the price of Rhino didn't increase?)

$100 more than R3 (effective June 1st 2007)...

[jbshorty]

Originally Posted by Couerl

Wow, I had to read it twice. Thanks very much for all the details Shorty.
I echo Stu's remarks on wanting to see some screen caps and stuff, not because its mandatory or anything like that, just curious to see some modeling done in Rhino-4 and not just the website promo stuff.

I search around Google for different things a lot that might be interesting to model and I love Hex and all, but I do want something more powerful to grow into someday like Amapi or Rhino. When I look at sites like this I just get all teary eyed and wish I had such capability.
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/mo...S_Dreadnought/

Check out some of this stuff!

that's good stuff! My uncle used to hand-build remote controlled ship models of this detail (100% by hand including the little people). but he was a retired tool and die-maker for the aerospace industry, so this was second nature for him. When he was a teenager, he was already machining tank models made of steel. He made every single part, right down to the rivets and treads! Unbelieveable... I posted a couple of models last year done in R4. Here are the links to those posts. The bracelet was a real monster. 900+ surfaces i think. And all of those "wrinkles" are actually G1 tangent to the bracelet body!!! I promise i will try to get some new R4 models posted soon. I need to think of something really challenging. And not a monster head...

http://forums.polyloop.net/3d-work-p...eo-button.html

http://forums.polyloop.net/3d-work-p...-bracelet.html

shorty

[Pete Exxtreme]

BTW i saw this bundle of Rhino4 + Mawxell Render, maybe the best rendering engine of the market
http://www.maxwellrender.com/ -> then Buy section

[jbshorty]

Originally Posted by Pete Exxtreme

BTW i saw this bundle of Rhino4 + Mawxell Render, maybe the best rendering engine of the market
http://www.maxwellrender.com/ -> then Buy section

I saw this just a few days ago, after i'd already bought my R4. so i missed that one. Would have been nice if the Maxwell people had mentioned it to the Rhino community. Instead they only mentioned it to the Maxwell community ...

PS - i just sent an e-mail to Next Limit to ask why they are keeping this secret...

[Sketchy]

That's what I wish Amapi Pro to have, an integration with Maxwell, Mental Ray or Vray without having to export the file to a OBJ for rendering. Most of the times the NURBS are in a messy state when exported. I still have to figure how to work around that.

jbshorty wrote: "Sketchy - I am planning to post a link soon to download my complete R4 UI setup (including MANY self-written macros, shade modes, custom toolbars, file templates, etc). The main purpose of this UI was to enable a single viewport workflow."

I'll be looking forward to that with wide-eyed wonder.

[sailor-ed]

Couerl,

The Dreadnought is a very nice model but I seriously don't see anything you couldn't do in Hexagon. Rhino might make some bits easier but most of the model is pretty straight forward.

[Dann-O]

Rhino really is not something that should be compared to Hexagon it is a CAD type program that does multimedia stuff too. Comparing to Amapi is quite fair they both serve the same purpose more or less. Saying that Hexagon is two dollars is misleading too. You can also get special deals on Rhino for students and the like, and you can use the program and save 25 times for free. I got Hexagon for free that does not mean it is free. So you are making an unfair comparison.

Rhino can be used to machine parts too it is a Cad program. So can Amapi. Can you use hexagon that way? No. What can I make with it well that is diferent but I personally use Wings for nearly everything even though I have proper versions of Hex and AC3D on my hard drive. Things can be a matter of taste and how they work too so that is a personal thing.

[Couerl]

Hey Ed, I figure Hex can handle around 1 mil poly's on my system without breaking down and I agree, the forms aren't necessarily too complicated, but the measurments and scales and working on individual elements and importing them to a master file makes me nervous to attempt it.
Plus it's just plain intimidating from a research perspective. Gathering all the data for everything to get it spec seems like months of work alone and then putting a plan together to build it all exactly to scale. I think work like this is extraordinary and would probably test my skills beyond their current ability.

Maybe someday though and that's more or less why I wanted to talk about Rhino and see what makes it so special.

Dann-O I wasn't really trying to compare Rhino to Hex or anything, it wasn't my intention, I just threw it out as an example...

So many people love wings, but I could never model much more than a cube in it... Hex to me is so much more friendly and efficient.

My next step will be Amapi-8 and then I'll see where my skills are in another year.

Thanks for all the great input.

[Thomas]

(we are looking for a way to integrate, or make an easy connection with Maxwell... perhaps not 8.0, but 8.0.x)

[sailor-ed]

I have to agree with you, Couerl, Hex does get a little spooky with high poly counts. I managed to overlook that even though I had some problems with my little ship model. I must learn to think twice, post once!

[Schbeurd]

JBshorty !

I just have one question for you as I know you are a regular poster on MoI forum...
Why would a Rhino user also use MoI. I mean the new version of Rhino seems so powerful that I'd like to know where MoI seems more suited to meet your requirements. There's probably nothing in MoI that you can't do in Rhino so I wonder if it's a matter of workflow, ease of use or... ?