3D Advice - Polyloop

jmac · 20th June 2007, 16:17

I'm new to this forum and to 3D modeling in general. I keep reading about 3D modeling programs that are "easy" to use. Given adequate instructional information I have never had trouble learning a new program...untill now. I am on a Mac and trying to learn Cheetah3D. This "easy" to use program seems to require familiarization with 3D modeling terms and technology that is completely unfamiliar to me. Is there in fact a program out there that a newbie could learn without feeling like I'm climbing Mt Everest to do it?

Suggestions greatly appreciated.

Grendel · 20th June 2007, 22:31

It depends on the individual and the particular program. Every program uses words like "Intuitive" in their marketing campaign, it just sounds better than "good luck figuring out how to use this".

I would ask what you are trying to accomplish in the end, are you going for a "drop items in a scene and render" or "making everything from scratch yourself" and rendering a final scene. There is a vast difference between the two.

I would also suggest trying all the demo's for programs available to you. You are on a Mac so that shortens the list somewhat already. The interfaces between 3d packages differ allot, if they all worked for everyone they would all look the same

. For a simple intro there are things like Bryce(5.5 is free), Carrara 3d Basics(cheap), Daz Studio(free uses content).

Training courses or video's that are the basics also would help you figure out the lingo for the 3d app you choose.

Do you want to start with a small program and grow out of it or start with a larger program and grow into it? Cost is also an issue with what you have available to you.

jmac · 20th June 2007, 23:31

Thank you for the response Grendel. I am a forensic artist. I make charts, diagrams, and models(real world) of crime scenes for use in criminal prosecutions. I recently discovered Google SketchUp and really like it. It is far superior to the program I was using before to make floor plans and elevations to build models from. Thru the SketchUp forums I stumbled on Cheetah3D and have seen others mentioned such as Amapi. Cheetah3D seems to be a very nice program and I have seen amazing results from others but the user manual is long on definitions and very short on actual instruction.

I am looking to be able to expand the kind of exhibit I can offer to include not only real world models but virtual ones as well. Court rooms are slowly becoming more advanced with the ability to do Powerpoint and slideshow presentations. I would like to expand my skills in that direction. SketchUp appears to be a great tool for architectual modeling. Programs like Cheetah seem to be better for objects with irregular shapes and curves. I am quickly getting gaining in my understanding of SketchUp but Cheetah...I am having a hard time making sense of.

Grendel · 21st June 2007, 03:19

I don't use it but your application of forensic courtroom diagrams/scenes could be filled by Poser or DazStudio very well if you're familiar with them. You could use your sketchup models of environments to build your 'set' and then import it into Poser or DazStudio and populate the rest with pre-made content(including human models/victims) for very little effort.

This type of workflow lends itself to walk-thru's and demonstration/exhibit quite well.

If you want to go the route of making everything yourself until you become proficient at modeling you could have problems with deadlines.

jmac · 21st June 2007, 04:28

Thanks, I'll look into those. I don't need to do it all myself. I'm just fascinated by 3D digital modeling. I sculpt and paint as a diversion from the sometimes grissly aspect of the other work. I was looking at zBrush earlier. WOW!

bwtr · 21st June 2007, 07:08

Suggust ZBrush needs to be low (very) on your list at this point. I would advise any beginner--if spending money--to go for Carrara 5(Pro5.1 is WOW also) as a first app.

But, to get the "feel", the free apps like, currently, Bryce5.5 and DazStudo (get both) are about the best "starter" apps.

The free objects stuff available to use in both those apps (and Carrara) is of truly amazing quantity and quality.

Grendel · 21st June 2007, 11:09

Z-Brush is a very interesting way to work, and I've seen some amazing medical illustration done with it that could be applied for forensic illustration, BUT I don't think it is what you need for your work related jobs.

If you're interested in digital sculpting look at Mudbox as well, they have a non-commercial version of it for $300 at www.mudbox3d.com. It does all the sculpting found in Z-brush but does not have all the other features found in Z, so it is a little easier to for beginners to pick up. Silo3D also does sculpting but it will not be ready for v.2. Blender is another app that is free, a complete 3d package but some people don't like the interface. For you though since your not used to anything else maybe the interface would not affect you.

jmac · 21st June 2007, 16:14

Thanks Brian and Grendel for your suggestions. I'm excited about the possibilities I see in 3D but it is also a little overwhelming. I can see where getting started on the wrong foot could be costly and discouraging. Your suggestions will hopefully help me to avoid at least the discouraging part.

rickei · 21st June 2007, 17:06

Jmac,

You can stay with Cheetah3D for a while. it is a pretty good modeler. I prefer Hexagon but it's more a matter of preference in user interface. You will find that most all of the tools in Cheetah are available in most any modeler, and work pretty much the same. So any knowledge you get out of it will be transferable to other applications.

I agree with bwtr and Grendel. Zbrush is REALLY cool, but it's probably not the best place to start, if you plan on using 3d to reconstruct scenes. Plus us Mac people are still waiting for ZBrush 3

Carrara, is a good rendering option, and can be used for lots of things, including animation. It has a pretty low learning curve. and as mentioned, the free Bryce and DAZ are a very good place to start. And you can find several good forums for getting your questions answered
as for Blender....Grendel is right, if you have NO experience in 3D you might be able to figure it out.

jmac · 21st June 2007, 18:23

Thanks Rickei. I have noticed certain similarities in the programs. I just downloded DAZ/Studio and Blender. I will give them a try. I have not been able to find Bryce 5.5 as a free download but the new version wouldn't break the bank and I may get that. Carrera looks very promising but I'm going to hold off spending that much for now. Mudbox looks great but it's PC only.

At this point I may be better off putting some money into upgrading my computer. I have a pc laptop but I prefer my Mac. It's an older G4, dual 800, 640 megs RAM, a 40 gig HD with 20gigs on an external drive. I'm sure my graphics card should be upgraded. Any suggestions along the hardware front for running these kinds of programs?

rickei · 21st June 2007, 18:45

You shouldn't have too much trouble with your machine the way it is. it is getting a little outdated but Daz & Bryce should run fine, Blender should be smooth too. I would probably go with a new machine, rather then try to upgrade the video card. the speed jump to a G5 is pretty substantial.

Do you have classic OS9 installed on your machine? If you do, you can download Amapi 6.1 from this forum. It's a good modeler for precision stuff.
http://forums.polyloop.net/software-...html#post96903

here is Bryce
http://www.download.com/Bryce/3000-2...ml?tag=lst-0-1

jmac · 22nd June 2007, 03:41

Thanks for the links. I do have classic on my Mac though I hardly ever go there any more. I did consider downloading Amapi and perhaps I will. It would be good to experience as many of the programs as I can I suppose. I have a lot of learning ahead of me and I appreciate you, Grendel and Brian taking the time to answer these posts.

jbshorty · 26th June 2007, 01:46

wings3D. It's free...

shorty

Affuso · 26th June 2007, 15:02

Mudbox is discounted until june 30 (15 %off) , the thing that drive me crazy is their non commercial stuff policy.
I would buy the hobbystic version and can't use for commercial works..MB should be a rival application, in the same market segment, of Zbrush and is much more expensive ( over 600 bucks).
They could have a non saving free version as the one from Pixologic and a one version below the price of ZB.

rickei · 27th June 2007, 04:26

Hexagon just went on sale again for $1.99 ... good through July 10th

WillBellJr · 27th June 2007, 18:37

I agree with what's said about trying out demos on everything you find.

I was playing with the Cinema 4D demo, fell in love with it so much that I grabbed XL along with Hair and Dynamics.

(I'm not sure but I may decide to sell off my Cararra 5 Pro w/manual & Plugins and Lightwave w/Plugins - still deciding but I know they'll prolly go unused at this point...)

You may want to give C4D's demo a try (http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/products_e.html) - definitely play around with the "Whimp" character and VisualSelector setups - really nice.

For what you do with Forensics, C4D may be the best package since it's geared to be easy to use and has great hooks into After Effects for compositing and video creation. It's definitely not cheap like the other packages mentioned here but sharbor.com has some pretty decent competitive upgrade deals going...

Now that Modo is going to have animation, that may be worth looking at as well.

There's a lot out there, that's for sure!

-Will

20th June 2007, 16:17	#1 (permalink)
jmac Vertex Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 7	3D Advice I'm new to this forum and to 3D modeling in general. I keep reading about 3D modeling programs that are "easy" to use. Given adequate instructional information I have never had trouble learning a new program...untill now. I am on a Mac and trying to learn Cheetah3D. This "easy" to use program seems to require familiarization with 3D modeling terms and technology that is completely unfamiliar to me. Is there in fact a program out there that a newbie could learn without feeling like I'm climbing Mt Everest to do it? Suggestions greatly appreciated.

20th June 2007, 22:31	#2 (permalink)
Grendel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 1,230 Images: 23	It depends on the individual and the particular program. Every program uses words like "Intuitive" in their marketing campaign, it just sounds better than "good luck figuring out how to use this". I would ask what you are trying to accomplish in the end, are you going for a "drop items in a scene and render" or "making everything from scratch yourself" and rendering a final scene. There is a vast difference between the two. I would also suggest trying all the demo's for programs available to you. You are on a Mac so that shortens the list somewhat already. The interfaces between 3d packages differ allot, if they all worked for everyone they would all look the same. For a simple intro there are things like Bryce(5.5 is free), Carrara 3d Basics(cheap), Daz Studio(free uses content). Training courses or video's that are the basics also would help you figure out the lingo for the 3d app you choose. Do you want to start with a small program and grow out of it or start with a larger program and grow into it? Cost is also an issue with what you have available to you.

21st June 2007, 03:19	#4 (permalink)
Grendel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 1,230 Images: 23	I don't use it but your application of forensic courtroom diagrams/scenes could be filled by Poser or DazStudio very well if you're familiar with them. You could use your sketchup models of environments to build your 'set' and then import it into Poser or DazStudio and populate the rest with pre-made content(including human models/victims) for very little effort. This type of workflow lends itself to walk-thru's and demonstration/exhibit quite well. If you want to go the route of making everything yourself until you become proficient at modeling you could have problems with deadlines. Last edited by Grendel; 21st June 2007 at 04:20.

21st June 2007, 11:09	#7 (permalink)
Grendel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 1,230 Images: 23	Z-Brush is a very interesting way to work, and I've seen some amazing medical illustration done with it that could be applied for forensic illustration, BUT I don't think it is what you need for your work related jobs. If you're interested in digital sculpting look at Mudbox as well, they have a non-commercial version of it for $300 at www.mudbox3d.com. It does all the sculpting found in Z-brush but does not have all the other features found in Z, so it is a little easier to for beginners to pick up. Silo3D also does sculpting but it will not be ready for v.2. Blender is another app that is free, a complete 3d package but some people don't like the interface. For you though since your not used to anything else maybe the interface would not affect you. Last edited by Grendel; 21st June 2007 at 16:24.

27th June 2007, 18:37	#16 (permalink)
WillBellJr Extrusion Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 199	I agree with what's said about trying out demos on everything you find. I was playing with the Cinema 4D demo, fell in love with it so much that I grabbed XL along with Hair and Dynamics. (I'm not sure but I may decide to sell off my Cararra 5 Pro w/manual & Plugins and Lightwave w/Plugins - still deciding but I know they'll prolly go unused at this point...) You may want to give C4D's demo a try (http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/products_e.html) - definitely play around with the "Whimp" character and VisualSelector setups - really nice. For what you do with Forensics, C4D may be the best package since it's geared to be easy to use and has great hooks into After Effects for compositing and video creation. It's definitely not cheap like the other packages mentioned here but sharbor.com has some pretty decent competitive upgrade deals going... Now that Modo is going to have animation, that may be worth looking at as well. There's a lot out there, that's for sure! -Will __________________ "With THIS!, you could be like GOD!..." - Kozer, Blake's 7

20th June 2007, 23:31	#3 (permalink)
jmac Vertex Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 7	Thank you for the response Grendel. I am a forensic artist. I make charts, diagrams, and models(real world) of crime scenes for use in criminal prosecutions. I recently discovered Google SketchUp and really like it. It is far superior to the program I was using before to make floor plans and elevations to build models from. Thru the SketchUp forums I stumbled on Cheetah3D and have seen others mentioned such as Amapi. Cheetah3D seems to be a very nice program and I have seen amazing results from others but the user manual is long on definitions and very short on actual instruction. I am looking to be able to expand the kind of exhibit I can offer to include not only real world models but virtual ones as well. Court rooms are slowly becoming more advanced with the ability to do Powerpoint and slideshow presentations. I would like to expand my skills in that direction. SketchUp appears to be a great tool for architectual modeling. Programs like Cheetah seem to be better for objects with irregular shapes and curves. I am quickly getting gaining in my understanding of SketchUp but Cheetah...I am having a hard time making sense of.

21st June 2007, 04:28	#5 (permalink)
jmac Vertex Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 7	Thanks, I'll look into those. I don't need to do it all myself. I'm just fascinated by 3D digital modeling. I sculpt and paint as a diversion from the sometimes grissly aspect of the other work. I was looking at zBrush earlier. WOW!

21st June 2007, 07:08	#6 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,068 Images: 49	Suggust ZBrush needs to be low (very) on your list at this point. I would advise any beginner--if spending money--to go for Carrara 5(Pro5.1 is WOW also) as a first app. But, to get the "feel", the free apps like, currently, Bryce5.5 and DazStudo (get both) are about the best "starter" apps. The free objects stuff available to use in both those apps (and Carrara) is of truly amazing quantity and quality.

21st June 2007, 16:14	#8 (permalink)
jmac Vertex Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 7	Thanks Brian and Grendel for your suggestions. I'm excited about the possibilities I see in 3D but it is also a little overwhelming. I can see where getting started on the wrong foot could be costly and discouraging. Your suggestions will hopefully help me to avoid at least the discouraging part.

21st June 2007, 17:06	#9 (permalink)
rickei Respect the Dawg! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: USA - Conway, South Carolina Posts: 770 Images: 1	Jmac, You can stay with Cheetah3D for a while. it is a pretty good modeler. I prefer Hexagon but it's more a matter of preference in user interface. You will find that most all of the tools in Cheetah are available in most any modeler, and work pretty much the same. So any knowledge you get out of it will be transferable to other applications. I agree with bwtr and Grendel. Zbrush is REALLY cool, but it's probably not the best place to start, if you plan on using 3d to reconstruct scenes. Plus us Mac people are still waiting for ZBrush 3 Carrara, is a good rendering option, and can be used for lots of things, including animation. It has a pretty low learning curve. and as mentioned, the free Bryce and DAZ are a very good place to start. And you can find several good forums for getting your questions answered as for Blender....Grendel is right, if you have NO experience in 3D you might be able to figure it out.

21st June 2007, 18:23	#10 (permalink)
jmac Vertex Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 7	Thanks Rickei. I have noticed certain similarities in the programs. I just downloded DAZ/Studio and Blender. I will give them a try. I have not been able to find Bryce 5.5 as a free download but the new version wouldn't break the bank and I may get that. Carrera looks very promising but I'm going to hold off spending that much for now. Mudbox looks great but it's PC only. At this point I may be better off putting some money into upgrading my computer. I have a pc laptop but I prefer my Mac. It's an older G4, dual 800, 640 megs RAM, a 40 gig HD with 20gigs on an external drive. I'm sure my graphics card should be upgraded. Any suggestions along the hardware front for running these kinds of programs?

21st June 2007, 18:45	#11 (permalink)
rickei Respect the Dawg! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: USA - Conway, South Carolina Posts: 770 Images: 1	You shouldn't have too much trouble with your machine the way it is. it is getting a little outdated but Daz & Bryce should run fine, Blender should be smooth too. I would probably go with a new machine, rather then try to upgrade the video card. the speed jump to a G5 is pretty substantial. Do you have classic OS9 installed on your machine? If you do, you can download Amapi 6.1 from this forum. It's a good modeler for precision stuff. http://forums.polyloop.net/software-...html#post96903 here is Bryce http://www.download.com/Bryce/3000-2...ml?tag=lst-0-1

22nd June 2007, 03:41	#12 (permalink)
jmac Vertex Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 7	Thanks for the links. I do have classic on my Mac though I hardly ever go there any more. I did consider downloading Amapi and perhaps I will. It would be good to experience as many of the programs as I can I suppose. I have a lot of learning ahead of me and I appreciate you, Grendel and Brian taking the time to answer these posts.

26th June 2007, 01:46	#13 (permalink)
jbshorty proud to be a nurb Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: only in your mind Posts: 1,319 Images: 1	wings3D. It's free... shorty

26th June 2007, 15:02	#14 (permalink)
Affuso Extrusion Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 170	Mudbox is discounted until june 30 (15 %off) , the thing that drive me crazy is their non commercial stuff policy. I would buy the hobbystic version and can't use for commercial works..MB should be a rival application, in the same market segment, of Zbrush and is much more expensive ( over 600 bucks). They could have a non saving free version as the one from Pixologic and a one version below the price of ZB.

27th June 2007, 04:26	#15 (permalink)
rickei Respect the Dawg! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: USA - Conway, South Carolina Posts: 770 Images: 1	Hexagon just went on sale again for $1.99 ... good through July 10th

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