Lens Flare failures - Polyloop

arcady · 28th January 2006, 12:21

When I put a transparent object in front of a light, or a light inside of a transparent object, lens flare fails to show up.

In addition, the ability to set a lens flare effect for sun or moon is missing - though I'm hearing an odd rumor that this might be by intent.

Thomas · 28th January 2006, 13:36

The lens flare effect is a post production effect, that's why if an object is front of the light which generate the effect, it won't show up, even if the front object is transparent.

Where you earing this rumor from? I don't see why Eovia do it by intent...

arcady · 28th January 2006, 21:05

Post production effect or not, it is still a bug for it not to work.

The rumor seemsto be in the reaction I got to asking how to handle the lack of lens flare from the sun over at renderosity. People kept saying it was because the sun in carrara is a 'real simulation'.

Of course, in reality if I take a picture - even through a window I will get lens flare, and even of the sun, and in fact especially of the sun, I will get lens flare.

The whole point of lens flare is to simulate what really happens when you take photos.

It's like what Disney said about animation - you have to overdo motion to near silly proportions or it looks stiff. People are so used to looking at photos with lens flare that when it is missing the picture looks artifical, like a painting. In fact some modern painters even paint in lens flare... :cool:

Plus, lens flare is often intentionally sought out for 'effects works'.
See this image if you are ok with nudity:
renderosity | deviantArt.

There are 17 lights in there, and 5 of them rely on lens flare tweaking. Of these the one I see as problematic in Carrara is the effects I gave to the water in the cauldron. The spells in the witch's hand I can do with light spheres, and the dragon's breath might actually work better in Carrara for the same reason than it did in Vue.

For a non nude:
renderosity | deviantArt.

The sun and the bulb are both lens flare effects.

Piem · 28th January 2006, 21:37

you'll see the lens flare only if it's a bulb.. Or ,if it's a spot,the direction is pointed toward the screen.

arcady · 28th January 2006, 22:15

I'm not sure I understood that.

Even bulbs are failing on me if I have anything in between them and the camera.

Thomas · 28th January 2006, 23:01

Arcady: sorry, it's -NOT- a bug. All software which do it as a post production effect have the same result. Perhaps the effect need an -improvment-, but clearly not a bug...
The only software I know which work as a postproduction effect which work with lansflare is 3DSMax, and even if your transparency object is at 100% of transparency, you will see only a little effect (like 5% of the effect..)

For the sun, it's a feature which miss to Carrara. In fact, you don't have the lensfrale for the distant light too.. and both sun light and distant lights are the same... I already request this feature for Carrara 5. I hope it will be in Carrara 6 ;)

arcady · 28th January 2006, 23:14

Actually, lens flare through a transparent object works in Vue.

I would call it a bug when something basic to normal lighting is not present, but whatever.

This is really making wondering if I will be able to get any use out of Carrara as a rendering engine. It is very frustrating and no workaround I've come across seems to be able to deal with given me even similar final results - regardless of method.

medeamajic · 28th January 2006, 23:33

arcady,

Can Vue morph facial features? Can Vue model objects better than Carrara? I don't think you want to throw out the baby with the bath water. At version 5 Carrara may not be up to par with Vue for landscapes or up to par with Poser for ease of use for figure animation but it has evolved very quick. I imagine Carrara 6 will do everything Vue can do and then some but only time will tell.

arcady · 28th January 2006, 23:58

That's not relevant to this issue.

bwtr · 29th January 2006, 02:39

Arcady I think lens flair through transparency would probably be at the very bottom of the list of many as a need. And doubting the quality of Carrara as a rendering engine would make you a standalone.

arcady · 29th January 2006, 02:44

I don't see why.

This is a rendering engine failure. And it is not limited to lens flare. All light effects other than spheres are failing when anything is placed between them and the camera.

Consider a scene where you place rain in the way, perhaps in the form of a series of transparent sheets with droplet shaders.

Even one of those sheets and all of your lighting will fail.

Consider this image:
http://www.deviantart.com/view/16348485/

If I were to put in headlamps on the car lights, or move the sun into the way, these would fail to do anything other than light the objects around them.

While Carrara might be a good modeler, if it cannot do most light effects in a complex scene, let alone a simple one like the above, it is not a renderer any better than that in Poser. The moment something is put in the way, all the nice features drop out.

See also:
http://www.renderosity.com/messages....essage=2560048

Where a number of -other- types of examples are posted alongside some solutions to some of them, but some of them noted as unsolvable.

bwtr · 29th January 2006, 04:16

As an ex pro photographer, I find the deviant art image seriously flawed and would want to really work it over in Photoshop! I am trying to make the point that different people have different views. I have looked through all the renderosity stuff and find all of the image ideas good and acceptable. Most imagery is only looked at momentarily and all the fine points are never noticed by the viewer. I know. I have often gone to great trouble and expense to produce some "spectacular" lighting effect and those rotten buyers have purchased my simplest effort!

bwtr · 29th January 2006, 06:16

Just for fun. I fiddled the DevArt in Photoshop. It's different!---better?---probably not. If you want to see it let me know where to send.

Thomas · 29th January 2006, 10:11

Arcady: Render>light thrue transparency...

medeamajic · 29th January 2006, 21:22

arcady,

I guess you will have to sell your Carrara 5 on ebay but you may find Carrara 6 to have all the features you want. I used True Space and Carrara both for a bout 3 years. I just sold my TS on ebay after I recieved my Carrara 4 Pro. I thought Carrara was better than TS. Now that TS 7 is out I wish I had kept my TS. I like what I see in TS 7. Now I have to buy the full version instead of the upgrade. You never know what will be added in the upgrades.

28th January 2006, 12:21	#1 (permalink)
arcady Cube Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Francisco native Posts: 74	Lens Flare failures When I put a transparent object in front of a light, or a light inside of a transparent object, lens flare fails to show up. In addition, the ability to set a lens flare effect for sun or moon is missing - though I'm hearing an odd rumor that this might be by intent. __________________ Legally Artistic Blog \| Art / Writing

28th January 2006, 13:36	#2 (permalink)
Thomas Always learning new stuff Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Merignac, France Posts: 11,323	The lens flare effect is a post production effect, that's why if an object is front of the light which generate the effect, it won't show up, even if the front object is transparent. Where you earing this rumor from? I don't see why Eovia do it by intent... __________________ Polyloop owner & Administrator - no support by PM or email. Polyloop [EN/FR] - Meuuh [FR +16 ans] - Totyo [FR] - Pixologic [JOB] - Le ZBlog [JOB] - La3dpourlesnuls [FR]

28th January 2006, 21:05	#3 (permalink)
arcady Cube Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Francisco native Posts: 74	Post production effect or not, it is still a bug for it not to work. The rumor seemsto be in the reaction I got to asking how to handle the lack of lens flare from the sun over at renderosity. People kept saying it was because the sun in carrara is a 'real simulation'. Of course, in reality if I take a picture - even through a window I will get lens flare, and even of the sun, and in fact especially of the sun, I will get lens flare. The whole point of lens flare is to simulate what really happens when you take photos. It's like what Disney said about animation - you have to overdo motion to near silly proportions or it looks stiff. People are so used to looking at photos with lens flare that when it is missing the picture looks artifical, like a painting. In fact some modern painters even paint in lens flare... :cool: Plus, lens flare is often intentionally sought out for 'effects works'. See this image if you are ok with nudity: renderosity \| deviantArt. There are 17 lights in there, and 5 of them rely on lens flare tweaking. Of these the one I see as problematic in Carrara is the effects I gave to the water in the cauldron. The spells in the witch's hand I can do with light spheres, and the dragon's breath might actually work better in Carrara for the same reason than it did in Vue. For a non nude: renderosity \| deviantArt. The sun and the bulb are both lens flare effects. __________________ Legally Artistic Blog \| Art / Writing

28th January 2006, 22:15	#5 (permalink)
arcady Cube Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Francisco native Posts: 74	I'm not sure I understood that. Even bulbs are failing on me if I have anything in between them and the camera. __________________ Legally Artistic Blog \| Art / Writing

28th January 2006, 23:01	#6 (permalink)
Thomas Always learning new stuff Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Merignac, France Posts: 11,323	Arcady: sorry, it's -NOT- a bug. All software which do it as a post production effect have the same result. Perhaps the effect need an -improvment-, but clearly not a bug... The only software I know which work as a postproduction effect which work with lansflare is 3DSMax, and even if your transparency object is at 100% of transparency, you will see only a little effect (like 5% of the effect..) For the sun, it's a feature which miss to Carrara. In fact, you don't have the lensfrale for the distant light too.. and both sun light and distant lights are the same... I already request this feature for Carrara 5. I hope it will be in Carrara 6 ;) __________________ Polyloop owner & Administrator - no support by PM or email. Polyloop [EN/FR] - Meuuh [FR +16 ans] - Totyo [FR] - Pixologic [JOB] - Le ZBlog [JOB] - La3dpourlesnuls [FR]

28th January 2006, 21:37	#4 (permalink)
Piem Booh! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rennes/fr Posts: 6,644	you'll see the lens flare only if it's a bulb.. Or ,if it's a spot,the direction is pointed toward the screen.

28th January 2006, 23:14	#7 (permalink)
arcady Cube Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Francisco native Posts: 74	Actually, lens flare through a transparent object works in Vue. I would call it a bug when something basic to normal lighting is not present, but whatever. This is really making wondering if I will be able to get any use out of Carrara as a rendering engine. It is very frustrating and no workaround I've come across seems to be able to deal with given me even similar final results - regardless of method. __________________ Legally Artistic Blog \| Art / Writing

28th January 2006, 23:33	#8 (permalink)
medeamajic Now, I learn animation Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,028	arcady, Can Vue morph facial features? Can Vue model objects better than Carrara? I don't think you want to throw out the baby with the bath water. At version 5 Carrara may not be up to par with Vue for landscapes or up to par with Poser for ease of use for figure animation but it has evolved very quick. I imagine Carrara 6 will do everything Vue can do and then some but only time will tell.

28th January 2006, 23:58	#9 (permalink)
arcady Cube Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Francisco native Posts: 74	That's not relevant to this issue. __________________ Legally Artistic Blog \| Art / Writing

29th January 2006, 02:39	#10 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,097	Arcady I think lens flair through transparency would probably be at the very bottom of the list of many as a need. And doubting the quality of Carrara as a rendering engine would make you a standalone.

29th January 2006, 02:44	#11 (permalink)
arcady Cube Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Francisco native Posts: 74	I don't see why. This is a rendering engine failure. And it is not limited to lens flare. All light effects other than spheres are failing when anything is placed between them and the camera. Consider a scene where you place rain in the way, perhaps in the form of a series of transparent sheets with droplet shaders. Even one of those sheets and all of your lighting will fail. Consider this image: http://www.deviantart.com/view/16348485/ If I were to put in headlamps on the car lights, or move the sun into the way, these would fail to do anything other than light the objects around them. While Carrara might be a good modeler, if it cannot do most light effects in a complex scene, let alone a simple one like the above, it is not a renderer any better than that in Poser. The moment something is put in the way, all the nice features drop out. See also: http://www.renderosity.com/messages....essage=2560048 Where a number of -other- types of examples are posted alongside some solutions to some of them, but some of them noted as unsolvable. __________________ Legally Artistic Blog \| Art / Writing

29th January 2006, 04:16	#12 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,097	As an ex pro photographer, I find the deviant art image seriously flawed and would want to really work it over in Photoshop! I am trying to make the point that different people have different views. I have looked through all the renderosity stuff and find all of the image ideas good and acceptable. Most imagery is only looked at momentarily and all the fine points are never noticed by the viewer. I know. I have often gone to great trouble and expense to produce some "spectacular" lighting effect and those rotten buyers have purchased my simplest effort!

29th January 2006, 06:16	#13 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,097	Just for fun. I fiddled the DevArt in Photoshop. It's different!---better?---probably not. If you want to see it let me know where to send.

29th January 2006, 10:11	#14 (permalink)
Thomas Always learning new stuff Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Merignac, France Posts: 11,323	Arcady: Render>light thrue transparency... __________________ Polyloop owner & Administrator - no support by PM or email. Polyloop [EN/FR] - Meuuh [FR +16 ans] - Totyo [FR] - Pixologic [JOB] - Le ZBlog [JOB] - La3dpourlesnuls [FR]

29th January 2006, 21:22	#15 (permalink)
medeamajic Now, I learn animation Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,028	arcady, I guess you will have to sell your Carrara 5 on ebay but you may find Carrara 6 to have all the features you want. I used True Space and Carrara both for a bout 3 years. I just sold my TS on ebay after I recieved my Carrara 4 Pro. I thought Carrara was better than TS. Now that TS 7 is out I wish I had kept my TS. I like what I see in TS 7. Now I have to buy the full version instead of the upgrade. You never know what will be added in the upgrades.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode