[Carrara]Negative Lights in Carrara 6? - Polyloop

Aunty Betty · 9th November 2007, 01:28

I'm asking the question basically because I'm too damned lazy to trawl the spec sheet for version 6 in the hope that they've actually added the feature atlast.

Not that I actually have version 6 anyway

Aunty Betty · 9th November 2007, 01:32

Oh bollocks- no it still doesn't for crying out loud

Couerl · 9th November 2007, 02:45

Hi Betty, I've heard of the term before, but noy exactly sure what practical application you might use them for or if there's another way to obtain the same result. Do you know of a good example that would help me understand them a little better?

TIA

Steve

bwtr · 9th November 2007, 02:52

Negative lighting is "Esoteric"---and it should stay there!

I think there are some write-ups at Sub-D Primer site.

Couerl · 9th November 2007, 03:05

Where is the "esoteric" setting in Carrara?

bwtr · 9th November 2007, 04:04

Just under the "Thaumaturgy" button!

bwtr · 9th November 2007, 13:04

If it's of any value for some source information?

markbremmer · 12th November 2007, 13:35

Negative lighting per se isn't really neccessary in Carrara since you can prevent objects from being lit by any or all of the lights in the properties tray for the lights themselves. Combining selective lighting with fall-off on your "regular" lights will get the effects you need.

bwtr · 12th November 2007, 16:46

Thanks Mark. I have been looking around at the various bits of information available and had that thought---but dismissed it as being far to easy a solution!

Wesgraphics · 12th November 2007, 19:04

As mark bremmer stated, there is no advantage to negative lights in Carrara.

First image is with negative lights and spot.

Second image is without negative lights and spot.

You can achieve the same effect in carrara with other techniques.

I think the original intention was to "cause soft shadows" by sucking or applying light to certain areas. Personally, never used them, I think it's a technique from photographers which doesn't always translate to 3D.

Scene from another software.

ronjurman · 12th November 2007, 19:22

Negative lighting was used quite a bit to assist in doing simulated GI. Now that GI is commonly available (and getting faster), I don't think it's seeing as much use. However, it still is handy in some scenes, as it darkens an 'area' of the scene in a 'gradual' manner, rather than across the board reduction of lights on individual objects (definitely not equivalent to lightening exclusions, and not particularly easy to simulate with scenes of any complexity).

rj

Thomas · 12th November 2007, 21:34

Negative light are working like black holes and are eating the light around. It's a good way to tweak the scene lighting. But now, with the new light techniques, users don't need them a lot... but sometime, it misses me.
Carrara 5 don't have negative lights and I don't think C6 have them...

whkguamusa · 13th November 2007, 00:38

You can see Carrara displayed in a Negative Light in many of the threads over on the DAZ servers.
Just look for threads like "Why does my system crash when I load 12 V4's & try to add dynamic hair to them?" etc....

wayne k
guam usa

bwtr · 13th November 2007, 01:25

Aunty Betty · 14th November 2007, 01:15

When you need a quick solution to enhance recessional depth and variable tonality as well as subtle coloration shifts in areas of gradation created by a main shadowing light I still can't think of a quicker and less esoteric method than negative lights.

It's like having a finer area exposure control and extremely useful for quickly generating subtle lighting touches that help further define the forms .

It was one of my hopes that it would make it into v6.

Now here's a genuine esoteric notion: Carrara lumps colour in with diffusion in it's shading system.

bwtr · 14th November 2007, 02:27

Mark I just love that reply! For simpletons like me, your first two lines are about as "Exotic" as it could get for me! In fact I am going to print out and put in my "quotes" which I list by my computer.

Seriously though, are those things of a benefit to the end imagery that most would discern?

Sorry for my dumbness but, if you get a chance, would love to see some before/afters to visualy explain please.

Brian

Aunty Betty · 14th November 2007, 02:56

Hi Brian, yes I should keep a check on my flowery language.

A simple example is that of your typical portrait painting - one side is typically brighter due to the the main light but the background just behind the lighter side of the face will be darker than that on the darkest side of the face. This helps throw the features forward by way of contrast. At the same time traversing the background is an overall tonal gradient.

Now obviously this is a very simple example and this simple scenario can be repeated in 3d just by the tonality of the background alone regardless of lighting but if you imagine these kinds of fine tunes all over the 3d space for various forms it's this kind of control that you benefit from and just like fog in underwater scenes for example it allows you to add fine touches to make the foreground elements loom forward via variable tonality. So it's like painting with light by using the inverse just where you need it and it's not the same thing as making certain light effects only certain objects or using variations of lights with different positive settings.

Negative lights are the kind of tool that you rarely need but when you do they're a great time saver.

The attached jpeg is an extremely simplified example and repeatable in this case via other means due to it's simplicity) but hopefully enough to illuminate my point when One envisages the possibilities on a more ambitious scale.

bwtr · 14th November 2007, 03:42

Thanks mate. I understand what you are saying, but, still, I am not convinced of the value when related to the common, say Carrara, alternatives.

The image does not show me anything at all I feel--sorry.

Need 3 large images. Standard (3 point?), Using Carrara light location etc. etc controls (as Mark indicated), a Negative light example.

Aunty Betty · 14th November 2007, 03:46

You don't ask for much

ok let's simplify - myself and Thomas want it.

rickei · 14th November 2007, 03:54

negative lighting is in my top 10 list of things I would like to see in Carrara. Like several of the other things on my list, I doubt they will ever be added. Everyone seems to want realism, and a lot of things i want, don't really fit that model.

My way around some lighting issues is to render multiple passes then composite them in Photoshop. similar to bracketing in photography... A beauty pass, then a darker and lighter pass, then layer them up in PS and blend them to fit my needs

9th November 2007, 01:28	#1 (permalink)
Aunty Betty In the blooming heather Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Happening Posts: 558 My Photos: (0) Images: 7	[Carrara]Negative Lights in Carrara 6? I'm asking the question basically because I'm too damned lazy to trawl the spec sheet for version 6 in the hope that they've actually added the feature atlast. Not that I actually have version 6 anyway __________________ aka Boozy Floozie

9th November 2007, 01:32	#2 (permalink)
Aunty Betty In the blooming heather Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Happening Posts: 558 My Photos: (0) Images: 7	Oh bollocks- no it still doesn't for crying out loud __________________ aka Boozy Floozie

9th November 2007, 13:04	#7 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,067 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	If it's of any value for some source information? Attached Thumbnails

12th November 2007, 13:35	#8 (permalink)
markbremmer Escaping to 3D worlds... Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 176 My Photos: (0) Images: 3	Negative lighting per se isn't really neccessary in Carrara since you can prevent objects from being lit by any or all of the lights in the properties tray for the lights themselves. Combining selective lighting with fall-off on your "regular" lights will get the effects you need. __________________ Mark Bremmer Beginner, intermediate and advanced Carrara tutorials are here.

12th November 2007, 19:04	#10 (permalink)
Wesgraphics Please, check your email!!! Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 78 My Photos: (0)	As mark bremmer stated, there is no advantage to negative lights in Carrara. First image is with negative lights and spot. Second image is without negative lights and spot. You can achieve the same effect in carrara with other techniques. I think the original intention was to "cause soft shadows" by sucking or applying light to certain areas. Personally, never used them, I think it's a technique from photographers which doesn't always translate to 3D. Scene from another software. Attached Thumbnails

9th November 2007, 02:45	#3 (permalink)
Couerl Polygurbs Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 1,292 My Photos: (0) Images: 6	Hi Betty, I've heard of the term before, but noy exactly sure what practical application you might use them for or if there's another way to obtain the same result. Do you know of a good example that would help me understand them a little better? TIA Steve

9th November 2007, 02:52	#4 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,067 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	Negative lighting is "Esoteric"---and it should stay there! I think there are some write-ups at Sub-D Primer site.

9th November 2007, 03:05	#5 (permalink)
Couerl Polygurbs Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 1,292 My Photos: (0) Images: 6	Where is the "esoteric" setting in Carrara?

9th November 2007, 04:04	#6 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,067 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	Just under the "Thaumaturgy" button!

12th November 2007, 16:46	#9 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,067 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	Thanks Mark. I have been looking around at the various bits of information available and had that thought---but dismissed it as being far to easy a solution!

12th November 2007, 19:22	#11 (permalink)
ronjurman Box modeling Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 201 My Photos: (0)	Negative lighting was used quite a bit to assist in doing simulated GI. Now that GI is commonly available (and getting faster), I don't think it's seeing as much use. However, it still is handy in some scenes, as it darkens an 'area' of the scene in a 'gradual' manner, rather than across the board reduction of lights on individual objects (definitely not equivalent to lightening exclusions, and not particularly easy to simulate with scenes of any complexity). rj Last edited by ronjurman : 12th November 2007 at 21:07.

12th November 2007, 21:34	#12 (permalink)
Thomas Always learning new stuff Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Merignac, France Posts: 11,057 My Photos: (219) Images: 93	Negative light are working like black holes and are eating the light around. It's a good way to tweak the scene lighting. But now, with the new light techniques, users don't need them a lot... but sometime, it misses me. Carrara 5 don't have negative lights and I don't think C6 have them... __________________ Polyloop owner & Administrator - no support by PM or email. Polyloop [EN/FR] - Meuuh [FR +16 ans] - Totyo [FR] - Pixologic [JOB] - Le ZBlog [JOB] - La3dpourlesnuls [FR]

13th November 2007, 00:38	#13 (permalink)
whkguamusa NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 109 My Photos: (0)	You can see Carrara displayed in a Negative Light in many of the threads over on the DAZ servers. Just look for threads like "Why does my system crash when I load 12 V4's & try to add dynamic hair to them?" etc.... wayne k guam usa

13th November 2007, 01:25	#14 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,067 My Photos: (6) Images: 49

14th November 2007, 01:15	#15 (permalink)
Aunty Betty In the blooming heather Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Happening Posts: 558 My Photos: (0) Images: 7	When you need a quick solution to enhance recessional depth and variable tonality as well as subtle coloration shifts in areas of gradation created by a main shadowing light I still can't think of a quicker and less esoteric method than negative lights. It's like having a finer area exposure control and extremely useful for quickly generating subtle lighting touches that help further define the forms . It was one of my hopes that it would make it into v6. Now here's a genuine esoteric notion: Carrara lumps colour in with diffusion in it's shading system. __________________ aka Boozy Floozie Last edited by Aunty Betty : 14th November 2007 at 01:36. Reason: thought of something else

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14th November 2007, 02:27	#16 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,067 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	Mark I just love that reply! For simpletons like me, your first two lines are about as "Exotic" as it could get for me! In fact I am going to print out and put in my "quotes" which I list by my computer. Seriously though, are those things of a benefit to the end imagery that most would discern? Sorry for my dumbness but, if you get a chance, would love to see some before/afters to visualy explain please. Brian

14th November 2007, 02:56	#17 (permalink)
Aunty Betty In the blooming heather Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Happening Posts: 558 My Photos: (0) Images: 7	Hi Brian, yes I should keep a check on my flowery language. A simple example is that of your typical portrait painting - one side is typically brighter due to the the main light but the background just behind the lighter side of the face will be darker than that on the darkest side of the face. This helps throw the features forward by way of contrast. At the same time traversing the background is an overall tonal gradient. Now obviously this is a very simple example and this simple scenario can be repeated in 3d just by the tonality of the background alone regardless of lighting but if you imagine these kinds of fine tunes all over the 3d space for various forms it's this kind of control that you benefit from and just like fog in underwater scenes for example it allows you to add fine touches to make the foreground elements loom forward via variable tonality. So it's like painting with light by using the inverse just where you need it and it's not the same thing as making certain light effects only certain objects or using variations of lights with different positive settings. Negative lights are the kind of tool that you rarely need but when you do they're a great time saver. The attached jpeg is an extremely simplified example and repeatable in this case via other means due to it's simplicity) but hopefully enough to illuminate my point when One envisages the possibilities on a more ambitious scale. Attached Thumbnails __________________ aka Boozy Floozie Last edited by Aunty Betty : 14th November 2007 at 03:11.

14th November 2007, 03:42	#18 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,067 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	Thanks mate. I understand what you are saying, but, still, I am not convinced of the value when related to the common, say Carrara, alternatives. The image does not show me anything at all I feel--sorry. Need 3 large images. Standard (3 point?), Using Carrara light location etc. etc controls (as Mark indicated), a Negative light example.

14th November 2007, 03:46	#19 (permalink)
Aunty Betty In the blooming heather Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Little Happening Posts: 558 My Photos: (0) Images: 7	You don't ask for much ok let's simplify - myself and Thomas want it. __________________ aka Boozy Floozie

14th November 2007, 03:54	#20 (permalink)
rickei Respect the Dawg! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: USA - Conway, South Carolina Posts: 763 My Photos: (13) Images: 1	negative lighting is in my top 10 list of things I would like to see in Carrara. Like several of the other things on my list, I doubt they will ever be added. Everyone seems to want realism, and a lot of things i want, don't really fit that model. My way around some lighting issues is to render multiple passes then composite them in Photoshop. similar to bracketing in photography... A beauty pass, then a darker and lighter pass, then layer them up in PS and blend them to fit my needs