[Carrara]Siggraph and Carrara

[Couerl]

Originally Posted by Naes3d

I don't understand what people have against content producers and users......................

The whole 'content users are bad' mentality is so ridiculous to me since most people who want to be in the 'professional' 3D business are signing up to either create content for others to manipulate or manipulate content others have created..

Hi Naes, I don't think it's so much a qestion of people thinking "content users are bad" as it is the direction and focus of the software development as a result of an overwhelming number of content manipulators vs. creators. If the focus of Carrara development shifts from "3D swiss army knife" to "3D Poser killer" then the program takes on a new focus as the result of figure/content manipulators wanting what makes the program work best for them. I have nothing against figure manipulators, but I do feel that the development of tools to support them exclusively puts those of us who simply want to make our own 3D in the back seat.

Forget the Incredibles and movie production pipelines and take a look at the average single user for a minute, which makes up about 95% of the local community here. Newer users are particularly drawn to content because they can load something and do some quick shader edits and viola, they have a render. That's all fine and good and it's a great way to bring new people in to 3D and grow the userbase. It is not however an end to a means. Many of these users will outgrow this content and want to create their own and if the direction of the software is geared mainly around the manipulation of 3D content as opposed to its creation then these users will be left wanting more. Indeed the reason why Hexagon has taken such a hold on a large portion of the userbase is that people want exactly that,...To create their own.

[Pete Exxtreme]

anyway, Polyloop is NOT orientated toward pre build content :
.....
here are the rules from Thomas :
http://forums.polyloop.net/forum-rul...tml#post104710
..........
Avoid as much as possible pre-made content & related questions.

This point is -very- important. Polyloop.net (and Amapi.net & Eovia3D.net before) have a long history of 3D creation. It doesn't mean that it's forbidden, because not everybody can create a full character for example. But images which only include pre-made content and which was only rendered in an external software won't be appreciated.

Then, it's the same for technical questions: some users are specialists of Poser on Polyloop, but not the majority. Also, a lot of dedicated forums related to Poser / DAZ studio already exist.

Even if it can be considered as an art image, we, at Polyloop.net, are not looking for this kind of creation. We prefer a beginner creation, but made from scratch.
We hope that you will understand that point
.......

So even if it's not understood, that the way Thomas Forum works

[Couerl]

Originally Posted by azul3d

Steven:
Thanks for your response and I understand your position. I guess the Daz information police (Ringo) is everywhere . It makes me wonder if I had been at Siggraph, would I have received answers to the questions I posed? So a product gets demoed publicly, but only certain people (the people at Siggraph), get to know the features about a product. This whole sneak peek stuff is getting old.
Azul3D

Well I understand this, but there's also a certain danger in me giving misinformation by answering your questions directly at this point. C6 is not finalized from what I know and the version I was using was still in Beta so it could change at the drop of a hat. I would hate to say yes or no to your questions only to find out something changed at release..

Steven

[Wася]

Originally Posted by jbshorty

Modo is only a baby (first version of rendering).

Yeah, and IMHO people are too kind to Modo. First Modo's milk tooth, first word, first step...

Originally Posted by jbshorty

... I am sure all the other environmental features will be developed in time to make a complete package. Let's compare again in 6 or 7 years from now... Until then, i can use Carrara to develop build landscape details for export to Modo. Carrara is proven to be very good for such details...

Agree.
Lets compare them (speed, quality, price) when they will offer more similar set of features.
But in 7 years DAZ will buy mental images, I promise.

[molaram]

All the stuff we're talking here have no answer unless Daz answers one question (maybe they did). Who do they see as rival of Carrara. Lets get real, its of course not Maya or LW or XSI but is it C4D (it is far away too but can be a target) or Poser.
In C5's arrival Eovia told that they got into the semi-pro segment with that version. But if they decide to turn the heading to Poser than its a step backwards for me, like they say ok we cant compete in that segment with this funding etc..

[Sketchy]

This reminds me of a question I posed in the TS forums months ago. Whether TS's latest version is finally ready for prime time. I suggested that to test the new features they should work on a project similar to Blender's Elephants Dream. Caligari people explained that they don't have the funds to do that. That they're not artists, they're developers. Something to that effect. They expect that users of their app will come up with those kinds of projects. Don't forget that Caligari has its own team of beta testers.

We can say the same thing here. We won't know the answer until C6 is actually released. I'm talking animation here. When it comes to stills, who says Carrara is incapable of producing great images?

[Sketchy]

Originally Posted by Naes3d

Would it be accurate to question a painter's artistic ability if it is found that he didn't create the paint he used?

If in fact the 'artist' took credit for creating the model, I would concede the point. But the majority of flack is given to those who use the models irregardless of claims.

Art is the manipulation of the senses. Art is not the technical skill involved in the creation of each individual element placed under a microscope.

I understand that some people look at an image and believe the presenter created every element himself. But that fact alone is not enough to say that the piece isn't art or wasn't done by a 'true' artist.

If you had never seen Stonehenge before and I painted you a picture of it, would you automatically say that the picture I painted was not art or done by a true artist once you found out that the image was not a 100% product of my imagination?

Or would that depend on the work itself?

Also, Inkers don't get paid less than pencillers because there is 'less art' involved in inking. The best way to sum up that situation is the old saying 'offense gets all the glory but it's defense that wins the game'. Inking is an art form that rarely gets the respect it deserves. It isn't an artistic decision that deems inkers get paid less than artists, but a business one. You can't pay everyone the same and expect to make any profit right?

I have seen this topic discussed in so many CG forums. Somehow I always find myself agreeing with something like the above. I'm not a content fan myself. I even forego the content freebies DAZ gives away when you buy their platinum membership.

Here's another version of the same topic.

[Naes3d]

Originally Posted by Couerl

Hi Naes, I don't think it's so much a qestion of people thinking "content users are bad" as it is the direction and focus of the software development as a result of an overwhelming number of content manipulators vs. creators. If the focus of Carrara development shifts from "3D swiss army knife" to "3D Poser killer" then the program takes on a new focus as the result of figure/content manipulators wanting what makes the program work best for them. I have nothing against figure manipulators, but I do feel that the development of tools to support them exclusively puts those of us who simply want to make our own 3D in the back seat.

Forget the Incredibles and movie production pipelines and take a look at the average single user for a minute, which makes up about 95% of the local community here. Newer users are particularly drawn to content because they can load something and do some quick shader edits and viola, they have a render. That's all fine and good and it's a great way to bring new people in to 3D and grow the userbase. It is not however an end to a means. Many of these users will outgrow this content and want to create their own and if the direction of the software is geared mainly around the manipulation of 3D content as opposed to its creation then these users will be left wanting more. Indeed the reason why Hexagon has taken such a hold on a large portion of the userbase is that people want exactly that,...To create their own.

That partly describes me. I first bought Poser as a simulated model for 'life' drawing after I stopped taking the live courses. Then I started to think that the challenge of building a figure was something I wanted to tackle.

I understand the fear of Carrara becoming a simple 'posing' application. I don't think that the features being added will necessarily be a bad thing for content creators. Yet. It is understandable that DAZ wants to make Carrara compatible with the products it produces. But as far as I can tell C6 has not lost any content creation features. They have gotten better (even if not to the level I would like).

That is one of the reasons I have high hopes for the Direct X features. Should they be solid enough they just might attract a whole new breed of users to Carrara that will be creators as opposed to manipulators. I just don't see content creation dying within the app. I think some of the features that have received less hype are going to be what saves the app for creators. I also think it is an exaggeration to claim that most of the new features are aimed at selling more content.

Of the 15 (as of this time today) announced new features only 2 are directly linked to handling of preexisting DAZ content.

[Naes3d]

Originally Posted by molaram

All the stuff we're talking here have no answer unless Daz answers one question (maybe they did). Who do they see as rival of Carrara. Lets get real, its of course not Maya or LW or XSI but is it C4D (it is far away too but can be a target) or Poser.
In C5's arrival Eovia told that they got into the semi-pro segment with that version. But if they decide to turn the heading to Poser than its a step backwards for me, like they say ok we cant compete in that segment with this funding etc..

The question is really less about who your target rival is and more about who you target audience is.

People are afraid that inclusion of content support means a general turn away from creation, which I don't think has been supported by what has actually happened yet.

Right now, DAZ is trying to create an app that supports all of its customers which is where the tension is coming from since creators generally reject and deride the manipulators. DAZ's acceptance of the 'enemy' is seen as a rejection of creators.

[molaram]

Lets hope you're right. Maybe its just about their sneak peaks usualy contain content renders and their siggraph show and the carrara 6 box (its not even drawn with hex or carrara). But lets wait and see then

[pem]

Originally Posted by medeamajic

Naes3D,

Remember in the world of comics there are artists and inkers. One gets paid more money than the other.

I think you mean that people should only get credit for what they do. Sometimes the finishers/inkers put in more work than the breakdown artists/pencillers. As a comic inker once, I spent a lot of time "fixing" the pencils while making it look as if the penciller had done it... heh. He's a great guy and a friend of mine, but he didn't know how to ink even his own stuff.

[rickei]

I am not opposed to using content. As a creative director for print, I spend around $18k per year in photography, sometimes I hire a photographer or shoot it myself, but most times I buy stock. If the client is happy then I am happy. I am not a purist when it comes to my business. I feel the same about 3D content in a production setting.

If you think about it - the movie FX houses ALL use pre-made content. Of all of the people that worked on Lord of the Rings, only a small team actually modeled/textured/rigged the creature Gollum. Once he was made, everyone else just used that same pre-made model throughout all 3 movies.

With all of that being said...as a hobby, I will always build my own 3D models and textures... otherwise whats the point.

[Couerl]

What's the point,... what's the point?!!

I dunno, what is the point?

[solt]

false debate!
Isaw superb images realized with will carrara and a lot of shits made with Maya or 3dstudio!
it is the artist who do the creation , not the program... see....

never mind fur, hair or soft body..
a real artist have a canvas a paintbox and some brushs !!!!

this is my point of view..

[pem]

Originally Posted by Couerl

What's the point,... what's the point?!!

I dunno, what is the point?

Anything that is anti-entropy...

For everyone here there is really only one answer to the great existential question (or else they wouldn't be here): it is better to create than to dissipate!

[Grendel]

Originally Posted by solt

it is the artist who do the creation , not the program

I agree 100%, I've seen allot of shit made with everything.......I've made some myself

It is not the package, but what you do with it. I do think though that you can outgrow a packages feature set to make your life easier in certain situations.

[sadot]

Originally Posted by Grendel

I agree 100%, I've seen allot of shit made with everything.......I've made some myself

It is not the package, but what you do with it. I do think though that you can outgrow a packages feature set to make your life easier in certain situations.

Amen Grendel

[solt]

I am afraid from the one who try to make my life easier...
big brother is not too far away

[Naes3d]

I agree that the artist is the one who creates art. The tools are nothing more than tools.

I actually got myself in a fair bit of trouble for (among other things LOL) suggesting that it was misleading for a company to liken a feature of it's program to a 'make art button'.

I wasn't so very well received after saying that...LOL.

[Grendel]

Originally Posted by Naes3d

I agree that the artist is the one who creates art. The tools are nothing more than tools.

Exactly, but I do agree and support the Polyloop mission statement as Pete posted.

"Even if it can be considered as an art image, we, at Polyloop.net, are not looking for this kind of creation. We prefer a beginner creation, but made from scratch."

I would rather see something not as good but original that the person created(model and render). Adding props to content and rendering is not what I would call a growing experience.