[Carrara]Siggraph and Carrara

[cckens]

Speaking as one of those who got a little testdrive (Thanks Couerl!!!) I have to admit, some of the feature will benefit the modeler/renderer. And I stood around enough to hear a few more of the questions. Couerl is right, people are concerned with export... getting stuff into other apps. Funny how that goes...
As for my testdrive, I didn't really do too much, I wanted to see how the hair functioned in a "fur" environment. It takes a little tweaking to get it to do what you want, but that might just have been a learning curve. Should have tried the Ocean primative, but just completely slipped the mind. I probably could have stayed later, but I had to get home in time to get my son from daycare... well, it was kind of a holiday for me.

Thanks again, Steve, for letting me see what she could do.
Ken

[pem]

Originally Posted by transient

To be honest I don't really see the benfefits of integrating Daz's products with Carrara except as a way of flogging their assets to Carrara owners. From what I can tell (please correct me if I'm wrong) there's no direct way to export from Carrara to Daz studio, or to Poser, Maya etc.

It seems Carrara is becoming more a place to host Daz content, rather than the affordable giant-killer it has a reputation for.

I've got no intention of getting Carrara so by all means take this with a grain of salt, but apart from the hair (which looks awesome) the focus seems to be to vertically market Daz's primary cash cows.

Well, it seems to me that the Carrara developers are focussed on a general use 3D app but, having just been acquired by DAZ and having been bought by a lot of DAZ customers, they'd be crazy not to integrate it with other DAZ content/software as much as possible. I guess the question is one of priorities; which feature do you add/fix in Carrara for this version and which feature do you leave for the next update. I don't think they mean it to be another DAZ|Studio or Poser but I doubt they could have left off integrating DAZ content to the next upgrade, probably another 18 months from this release.

I bet that once the DAZ integration is done, that they'll move forward with more general features. They already have DAZ|Studio, Hex, and Mimic. Carrara is their flagship general purpose 3D animation app and a damn good and fast renderer. I'm guessing but I'd say that getting a good scene building/hosting app with a renderer was why they originally bought Bryce and then bought Eovia. Really, it is what they needed: if you are going to sell razor blades, you should sell the razor handles, shaving soap, aftershave, towels etc... too. So long term, I think you will see improvements in Carrara's general capabilities rather than just making it a content host.

[transient]

Carrra's renderer is one of the slowest I've ever used for quality renders. It's default settings are (deceptively) quick, but very noisy imo.

I never said integrating Carrara was a bad business idea. A lot of the whining at Daz revolves around Poser models not importing properly.

Daz are heavily marketing the product as a Poser killer, and from the promos I've seen it suggests that they see it as Daz Studio Bryce Plus (with a pinch of Hex).

If your happy with this, that's cool, but I would be a little disappointed.

[whkguamusa]

Originally Posted by transient

Carrra's renderer is one of the slowest I've ever used for quality renders. It's default settings are (deceptively) quick, but very noisy imo.

What render engines (that you have used) are quick(er) and noise free?

wayne k
guam usa

[transient]

Shades Callisto renderer and Vray are much faster for the same result imo, but Modo is probably the fastest I've used. Shade's scanline renderer is like lightning and is great for test renders.

When I first used the Carrara demo I thought it was quick as well, until I cranked up the photon map settings, and started using caustics and sss. I thought this annoyed many Carrara users, but I guess I might be wrong.

It's also good quality, but maybe not as good as others I've mentioned (this is obviously my subjective opinion).

There are others on this forum who could give a more expert opinion on this as I've never owned Carrara, but this was my impression.

[LoneGunman]

Originally Posted by transient

Carrra's renderer is one of the slowest I've ever used for quality renders. It's default settings are (deceptively) quick, but very noisy imo.

Agreed (well, Bryce is slower, ). I got lot of laughs from Carrara "experts" on this issue...

Majority of people for some reason find it satisfactory. Speed is obviously more important than a quality...

On the other hand, that is why Carrara is in the lower class of rendering solutions, which is obviously reflected in it's price...Nothing against Carrara here, just a personal opinion.

[Wася]

I have not found Modo 203 render too fast. 20 minutes for wrist watches (from their own tutor) on 2.66 dual core?
And yeah, Callisto2 itself is very fast, but the process (separate) of radiosity calculation is not too fast.

[fpfrdn3]

Siggraph sounds like a candy store for 3dcg artists, . Thanks for the info. I hope C6 takes off to a good start, and I do like some of the sneak peaks Im seeing at DAZ alot lately(especialy some of those landscape pictures with DH).

Now that Im experiencing Carrara more(it was always a backup to Shade for me), I would say the that Carraras native renderer is faster than Shades native renderer at the same settings, and looks cleaner(IMO), by a good margin in GI(although Shade 9 may change that). Callisto is ALOT better, but its also more expensive in the Pro version(it also has no resume render or networking).

I have cranked up the settings in Carrara, and yes is slows waaay down, but it still seems faster and should I say, different for GI noise(but less), IMHO, then Shades native renderer(and I was using 64bit Shade too). I like both programs for what they are, but I would have to say, overall, Carrara is the better deal, even without the current DAZ sale. Fastest renderer I've used, with the best quality, was C4D GO(lesser version of C4D at the time).

Just my .02

[transient]

I have not found Modo 203 render too fast. 20 minutes for wrist watches (from their own tutor) on 2.66 dual core?
And yeah, Callisto2 itself is very fast, but the process (separate) of radiosity calculation is not too fast.

Callisto needs to be configured properly to work well, you can waste a lot of time if you don't. It's a lot more complicated than Carrara or vray.

My only beef with Shade is the lack of pro tips and tutorials, especially for Callisto, but with the new e-zine hopefully this will change.

I never rendered the watch scene in Modo, but it has a reputation for speed, and it seemed fast for GI when I used it. It rendered displacement extremely fast as well.

I know Thomas likes it as well, maybe he could explain why it choked on the watches?

[Wася]

More interesting how fast Callisto will be, when they will implement displacement maps. Shade 9 Jap already can not render hair (I told about it already somewhere) in Callisto.
I don't know what it could be with Modo, maybe Thomas could explain. But I used pre-installed settings. So...
At least I can not complain of the quality. I suspect both Modo and C4D renders use radiosity.

[pem]

Originally Posted by LoneGunman

Agreed (well, Bryce is slower, ). I got lot of laughs from Carrara "experts" on this issue...

Majority of people for some reason find it satisfactory. Speed is obviously more important than a quality...

On the other hand, that is why Carrara is in the lower class of rendering solutions, which is obviously reflected in it's price...Nothing against Carrara here, just a personal opinion.

Hmm, well I've only ever tried Bryce and Poser as alternative renderers and I have found Cararra's to be more satisfying. I had heard elsewhere that Carrara was fast and accepted that since I had little else to compare it too. (Shrug) Works for me generally for what I am doing and at my price point though I believe you that there are other render engines out there that are faster and higher quality.

I agree with the default settings for GI renders in Carrara being quick and noisy, which works for stills generally but not for animations. I have experimented with the GI render settings and found that the biggest difference in the noise factor comes from one setting, "Lighting Quality". I can get very good GI animation renders without visible noise at the Best setting but it is a 4-8 fold increase in render times to do it. The other settings, even photon count and photon map accuracy do not make as big a difference once you are past a threshold level (50K photons slows you down but doesn't make the image any better than 5k photons usually). When testing my render settings, I set Lighting Quality to Excellent or Best and then crank down the other settings to speed up the render until the quality gets unacceptable.

Is there anything missing in Carrara's renderer besides normal mapping (although I think there is a plugin for this) that we should ask the devs to add? I'm going to stick with Carrara as my main app because I know it well, but I'm always looking for improvements.

[whkguamusa]

Originally Posted by LoneGunman

Agreed (well, Bryce is slower, ). I got lot of laughs from Carrara "experts" on this issue...

Majority of people for some reason find it satisfactory. Speed is obviously more important than a quality...

On the other hand, that is why Carrara is in the lower class of rendering solutions, which is obviously reflected in it's price...Nothing against Carrara here, just a personal opinion.

So what class does that put the Mental Ray render engine in?
XSI Fnd 6 gives you a full 2 cpu license of MR 3.5 for $495.00

wayne k
guam usa

[Naes3d]

I don't understand what people have against content producers and users.

Every 3D app out there was created for the purposes of producing content for someone to use.

Brad Bird wrote and directed The Incredibles, but I suppose he is a no talent hack because he didn't model the characters himself.

The only difference is who the content is produced for: the public or for some private entity.

Content is the meat and potatoes of this business, if it wasn't there would be no Max, Lightwave, Modo or Carrara. 3D programs were not designed solely for the purpose of reinforcing or establishing that a particular individual is indeed a true artist. The technology involved in creating these programs has advanced to the point where everyone has an opportunity to express themselves with it.

The whole 'content users are bad' mentality is so ridiculous to me since most people who want to be in the 'professional' 3D business are signing up to either create content for others to manipulate or manipulate content others have created.

As far as rendering goes, the default settings are probably always going to be faster and less accurate than after a user has made adjustments. The slowest renderer I have ever used was Bryce. I remember a point when was only using Micrografx Simply 3D for everything. Bryce was a gift from heaven even with the speed deficit.

But the good thing about Carrara is that it gives you most of the features you need to be competitive. You don't get the sense that Carrara wants the world to conform to its standards (I don't anyway). What people want from Carrara is an affordable program with relevant features. Even tho C6 is far from perfect, it's closer now to that goal than it has been in a while.

[LoneGunman]

Originally Posted by whkguamusa

So what class does that put the Mental Ray render engine in?
XSI Fnd 6 gives you a full 2 cpu license of MR 3.5 for $495.00

wayne k
guam usa

See, that is a good example where exact opposite happens...price does not reflects power of MentalRay. However, renders (especially interior ones) speak for themselves, do they not ?

MentalRay is there basically a "freebie" just to lure you in to buy higher priced versions of XSI

[medeamajic]

Naes3D,

Your not wrong but you not 100% right either. Please allow me to explain.

If George Lucas writes a script and hires animators to make the script a reality Gegore does not brag about being a great 3-D artist. He could take credit for writing the script and directing the movie. Both are an art forum in my opinion but George would not claim to be a 3-D artist. Nor would I consider him one. I think any true 3-D artist should do more than just use premade models and materials (content). So you are some what right. A person could use premade Poser Models and Poser 7 to produce a full length movie. They would have talent for script writing and directing but would they be a true 3-D artist? Could they accept a job at Pixar using Poser and Daz Content? Just animating a premade model is a talent in my opinion but not as talented as someone who designs the models and animates them. Remember in the world of comics there are artists and inkers. One gets paid more money than the other.

Does Brad Bird have talent or is he a fake? It would depend on what he has actually done VS what he takes credit for.

[Wася]

Carrara tries to compete in all areas. Skies, clouds, trees, terrains, particles, now - hair, grass, et al. Modo & Shade renders are so cool in interiors or some macro scenes like jewel on a glass table or a cup of tea with a silver spoon. But in landscapes...
I'm sorry, but what's cool with this water?
http://www.luxology.com/gallery/video.aspx?id=51
http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp...hotos/3584.jpg
or this sky?
http://www.luxology.com/gallery/image.aspx?id=2473
http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp...hotos/3587.jpg
http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp...hotos/3579.jpg
http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp...hotos/3574.jpg
or this plants?
http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp...hotos/3611.jpg
and I'm not sure this clouds were made in Shade, not outside it
http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp...hotos/3620.jpg
and don't tell me thing like that can not be done in Carrara
http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp...hotos/3634.jpg
http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp...hotos/3573.png
http://shade-lounge.e-frontier.co.jp...hotos/3614.png
http://www.luxology.com/gallery/image.aspx?id=2516

P.S. Yeah, mental ray is a first class render, speaking about cost
"Rendering techniques in XSI" by Digital Tutors - $56
"mental ray in XSI" by Digital Tutors - $56
"Rendering with mental ray" By Thomas Driemeyer - $62
"Writing mental ray Shaders: A Perceptual Introduction" - $169 (still waiting)

[Naes3d]

Originally Posted by medeamajic

Naes3D,

Your not wrong but you not 100% right either. Please allow me to explain.

If George Lucas writes a script and hires animators to make the script a reality Gegore does not brag about being a great 3-D artist. He could take credit for writing the script and directing the movie. Both are an art forum in my opinion but George would not claim to be a 3-D artist. Nor would I consider him one. I think any true 3-D artist should do more than just use premade models and materials (content). So you are some what right. A person could use premade Poser Models and Poser 7 to produce a full length movie. They would have talent for script writing and directing but would they be a true 3-D artist? Could they accept a job at Pixar using Poser and Daz Content? Just animating a premade model is a talent in my opinion but not as talented as someone who designs the models and animates them. Remember in the world of comics there are artists and inkers. One gets paid more money than the other.

Does Brad Bird have talent or is he a fake? It would depend on what he has actually done VS what he takes credit for.

Would it be accurate to question a painter's artistic ability if it is found that he didn't create the paint he used?

If in fact the 'artist' took credit for creating the model, I would concede the point. But the majority of flack is given to those who use the models irregardless of claims.

Art is the manipulation of the senses. Art is not the technical skill involved in the creation of each individual element placed under a microscope.

I understand that some people look at an image and believe the presenter created every element himself. But that fact alone is not enough to say that the piece isn't art or wasn't done by a 'true' artist.

If you had never seen Stonehenge before and I painted you a picture of it, would you automatically say that the picture I painted was not art or done by a true artist once you found out that the image was not a 100% product of my imagination?

Or would that depend on the work itself?

Also, Inkers don't get paid less than pencillers because there is 'less art' involved in inking. The best way to sum up that situation is the old saying 'offense gets all the glory but it's defense that wins the game'. Inking is an art form that rarely gets the respect it deserves. It isn't an artistic decision that deems inkers get paid less than artists, but a business one. You can't pay everyone the same and expect to make any profit right?

[Wася]

I also don't think George Lucas production is kinda natural economy. Quite the contrary. Some people model, another animate, another produce visual effects, et al.

We in Russia have not movies with $250 million budget. At most $4-6M. But even here serious studio will not invite jacks-of-all-trades.

[fpfrdn3]

What strikes me funny is; someday instead of,..or added to a primitives drop down list in tools(like a sphere, cube), we might have a Viki/Aiko/Michael/David for starting scenes, .

@WacЯ, thats one reason why I switched to Carrara,..landscaping built in. Skies, trees, and yes, nice water etc. I was using Bryce and Shade until now. Some of the DAZ C6 sneak peaks landscape pictures are awesome.

[jbshorty]

@ Wacr - RayDream/Carrara has been around for how long? Modo is only a baby (first version of rendering). For now it's focus is good quality with good speed. I am sure all the other environmental features will be developed in time to make a complete package. Let's compare again in 6 or 7 years from now... Until then, i can use Carrara to develop build landscape details for export to Modo. Carrara is proven to be very good for such details...