[Carrara]Greeble, Greeble, cluck, cluck, Greeble - Page 2 - Polyloop

bwtr · 18th March 2007, 02:01

Shaun. Looks like you soved the problem one way. I am still looking at another.

Chrisd. Veloute 2 is excellent. I still use it. However, EnhanceC is a huge step up in terms of a general purpose shader plugin. I wonder if I ever will learn all the options that it provides?

I think it would be great, and provide a very rounded app, if I could afford every one of the DCG and Inagoni plugins.

On a list of "Things I would like" list them on a big sheet of paper alongside your birthdays reminder dates!

bwtr · 18th March 2007, 04:00

I thought that creating shape layers (see attachment) MUST produce an image free of artifacts but NO!

Very strange. Anymore ideas anyone?

LoneGunman · 18th March 2007, 05:25

16 bit TIFF format ?

bwtr · 18th March 2007, 06:58

Lonegunman

Can not seem to find a tiff setting which works? Most seem worse than the jpeg versions if anything!

LoneGunman · 18th March 2007, 10:25

Hmm, not that I ever tried (I only have Photoshop elements), but how about this:

Menu: Image-> Mode-> Grayscale 16 bit (I hear that CS and CS2 should be able to do this, again, Elements does not have this option). You should have these options when you create new file as well.

After that save it in Tiff format...I only tried displacement in Carrara with 16bit tiff images created with other software (height map exported from Vue, for example)...

bwtr · 18th March 2007, 10:48

Ok I got the 16 bit Tiff thanks. If anything more artifacts than on simple jpg. However, Carrara did not like the 16bit tiff at all--it all most trippled the time of each of the little test renderings that are made in the displacement process before getting back to the Assembly room.

LoneGunman · 18th March 2007, 15:53

Well, never played with displacements a lot, but it seams that nice and smooth edges can be achieved with procedurals (which basically have an infinite detail, dunno if renderer is seeing them as 8 bit or 16 bit values though)

Therefore 16 bit gray-scale TIFF format (in theory) should give you more detail (less artifacts) then 8 bit ones (regular color images have 256 shades of gray).

I just installed 30 day CS trial to play with this more, will post tomorrow morning my findings (stupid Carrara manual does not say nothing about displacements with image mapping), cuz I have to go to work now

BTW, what is the size of the image you used?

bwtr · 19th March 2007, 00:10

All the images were 1024 by 1024 and I tried all sorts of variation in making and saving in PhotoshopCS2 (andCS3) and Illustrator CS2. As a general rule, I never use Tiff format. I have never yet found it giving a benefit in quality or file size. Whilst obviously working in Photoshop format I only ever now save in .jpg or .png.

bwtr · 19th March 2007, 00:56

this is an 1024 by 1024 .png test.

shaunmckinnon · 19th March 2007, 03:41

i think the smooth being on is what's creating the problem. it's trying to smooth our edges, but there's no chamfer or fillet on those edges so it creates those strange artifacts in the render. however, when you remove smoothing, it creates the nice harden edge with a slight bevel. if i hardened the edge even more, i'd get creased edges. i honestly don't think any image file format will obliterate the artifact problem. i don't think it's an issue with "frayed edges" just an issue with smoothing.
I'm kind of a newbie really though...not been using this app as long as you old farts.

j/k

bwtr · 19th March 2007, 05:40

If I remember correctly (old farts memory problems!!!) the displacement tag only came in with the 5.1 update. (no help file info?)

In this current exercise of mine , using all the variable in the tag, the only difference I can get is in the visual level of faulty effects, not elimination.
The problem is understandable maybe using say the Photoshop brushes but I thought using vector shapes that it would be a foregone conclusion that edges would be artifact free.

LoneGunman · 19th March 2007, 09:59

I believe the problem will occur no matter what shader is used: procedural or texture map. It depends how discontinuos displaced surface is. Sudden vertical slopes need more polygons to make them look more smooth, no way around it... Avoiding very sharp edges on the displacement maps should help here...

bwtr · 20th March 2007, 03:17

As a final exercise? The left default sphere with spherical mapping in the Displacement tag.

On the right, a 4 times subdivided vetex sphere. Ok the result is similar -but different-but the queer thing is that applying spherical mapping sent the result crazy. This is just plain mapped!

What an odd world!

markbremmer · 22nd March 2007, 21:17

You know, when I wrote that tutorial, the Surface Replicator didn't exist in Carrara. :-)

You might want to consider a little quick modeling and then go wild with the replicator. Surfaces are easy to adjust and don't bloat file size. The object in my sample has 4 replicators restricted to the top of the box. That way I could better control quantity of certain objects.

Mark

18th March 2007, 04:00	#22 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,063 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	I thought that creating shape layers (see attachment) MUST produce an image free of artifacts but NO! Very strange. Anymore ideas anyone? Attached Thumbnails

18th March 2007, 05:25	#23 (permalink)
LoneGunman SILO abuser Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Louisville, KY USA Posts: 556 My Photos: (0) Images: 23	16 bit TIFF format ? __________________ My missions are not impossible, I just make them look that way

18th March 2007, 06:58	#24 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,063 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	Lonegunman Can not seem to find a tiff setting which works? Most seem worse than the jpeg versions if anything! Attached Thumbnails

18th March 2007, 10:25	#25 (permalink)
LoneGunman SILO abuser Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Louisville, KY USA Posts: 556 My Photos: (0) Images: 23	Hmm, not that I ever tried (I only have Photoshop elements), but how about this: Menu: Image-> Mode-> Grayscale 16 bit (I hear that CS and CS2 should be able to do this, again, Elements does not have this option). You should have these options when you create new file as well. After that save it in Tiff format...I only tried displacement in Carrara with 16bit tiff images created with other software (height map exported from Vue, for example)... __________________ My missions are not impossible, I just make them look that way

18th March 2007, 15:53	#27 (permalink)
LoneGunman SILO abuser Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Louisville, KY USA Posts: 556 My Photos: (0) Images: 23	Well, never played with displacements a lot, but it seams that nice and smooth edges can be achieved with procedurals (which basically have an infinite detail, dunno if renderer is seeing them as 8 bit or 16 bit values though) Therefore 16 bit gray-scale TIFF format (in theory) should give you more detail (less artifacts) then 8 bit ones (regular color images have 256 shades of gray). I just installed 30 day CS trial to play with this more, will post tomorrow morning my findings (stupid Carrara manual does not say nothing about displacements with image mapping), cuz I have to go to work now BTW, what is the size of the image you used? __________________ My missions are not impossible, I just make them look that way

18th March 2007, 02:01	#21 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,063 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	Shaun. Looks like you soved the problem one way. I am still looking at another. Chrisd. Veloute 2 is excellent. I still use it. However, EnhanceC is a huge step up in terms of a general purpose shader plugin. I wonder if I ever will learn all the options that it provides? I think it would be great, and provide a very rounded app, if I could afford every one of the DCG and Inagoni plugins. On a list of "Things I would like" list them on a big sheet of paper alongside your birthdays reminder dates!

18th March 2007, 10:48	#26 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,063 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	Ok I got the 16 bit Tiff thanks. If anything more artifacts than on simple jpg. However, Carrara did not like the 16bit tiff at all--it all most trippled the time of each of the little test renderings that are made in the displacement process before getting back to the Assembly room.

19th March 2007, 00:10	#28 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,063 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	All the images were 1024 by 1024 and I tried all sorts of variation in making and saving in PhotoshopCS2 (andCS3) and Illustrator CS2. As a general rule, I never use Tiff format. I have never yet found it giving a benefit in quality or file size. Whilst obviously working in Photoshop format I only ever now save in .jpg or .png.

19th March 2007, 00:56	#29 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,063 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	this is an 1024 by 1024 .png test. Attached Thumbnails

19th March 2007, 03:41	#30 (permalink)
shaunmckinnon Extrusion Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 187 My Photos: (0) Images: 1	i think the smooth being on is what's creating the problem. it's trying to smooth our edges, but there's no chamfer or fillet on those edges so it creates those strange artifacts in the render. however, when you remove smoothing, it creates the nice harden edge with a slight bevel. if i hardened the edge even more, i'd get creased edges. i honestly don't think any image file format will obliterate the artifact problem. i don't think it's an issue with "frayed edges" just an issue with smoothing. I'm kind of a newbie really though...not been using this app as long as you old farts. j/k __________________ "I put a hexagon on you, cause you're mine. And I love the things that you do.." DELL DIMENSION 5150, P4 3.2GHZ HT, 3GB RAM, 256 ATI X600 (128 SHARED), DUAL 250GB SATA, XP PRO CARRARA 5 STANDARD, HEXAGON 2, DREAMWEAVER 2004MX,COREL SUITE 12, BRYCE 5.5, POSER 5

19th March 2007, 05:40	#31 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,063 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	If I remember correctly (old farts memory problems!!!) the displacement tag only came in with the 5.1 update. (no help file info?) In this current exercise of mine , using all the variable in the tag, the only difference I can get is in the visual level of faulty effects, not elimination. The problem is understandable maybe using say the Photoshop brushes but I thought using vector shapes that it would be a foregone conclusion that edges would be artifact free. Last edited by bwtr : 19th March 2007 at 05:53.

19th March 2007, 09:59	#32 (permalink)
LoneGunman SILO abuser Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Louisville, KY USA Posts: 556 My Photos: (0) Images: 23	I believe the problem will occur no matter what shader is used: procedural or texture map. It depends how discontinuos displaced surface is. Sudden vertical slopes need more polygons to make them look more smooth, no way around it... Avoiding very sharp edges on the displacement maps should help here... __________________ My missions are not impossible, I just make them look that way

20th March 2007, 03:17	#33 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,063 My Photos: (6) Images: 49	As a final exercise? The left default sphere with spherical mapping in the Displacement tag. On the right, a 4 times subdivided vetex sphere. Ok the result is similar -but different-but the queer thing is that applying spherical mapping sent the result crazy. This is just plain mapped! What an odd world! Attached Thumbnails

22nd March 2007, 21:17	#34 (permalink)
markbremmer Escaping to 3D worlds... Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 176 My Photos: (0) Images: 3	You know, when I wrote that tutorial, the Surface Replicator didn't exist in Carrara. :-) You might want to consider a little quick modeling and then go wild with the replicator. Surfaces are easy to adjust and don't bloat file size. The object in my sample has 4 replicators restricted to the top of the box. That way I could better control quantity of certain objects. Mark Attached Thumbnails __________________ Mark Bremmer Beginner, intermediate and advanced Carrara tutorials are here.

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