Carrara - it is a dead end and here is why

[whkguamusa]

>
And for me, the most important feature, I would truly love to be able to substitute low poly versions of high-poly-costly objects in assembly room while the render will pull up the original high poly version. Some bigger softs have this feature and it is a lifesaver. As polys pile up the memory gets cranky, carrara slows down up to the point of the software actually locking down. Main biggest complain! I think I should log on DAZ forum and start lobbying for it!
>

Depending on how you do things some of this can be done in Carrara now.
If you are modeling outside of Carrara save your models without subdivision and bring in just the base cage.
Set your object smoothing options to none for modeling and then set the rendering option as high as you need to get the result you want.
This can be done per object or a one shot global change for all objects in the scene.

If this is not enough, you can also parent a low poly stand-in object to a high rez object you want in the final render. Set the display options to allow the high-rez object to render but not display in the Assembly room, do the opposite for the stand in object - visible in assmbly - no show in the final render.


wayne k
guam usa

[Sketchy]

What you could expect to see in C6, imho, with almost 100% certainty is more rendering power, which could, most likely, rival Modo's. It may even be better.

I do think that this aspect of the app is what the dev team was most proud of when they release C5. It's probably still a WIP in their eyes. I mean look at what's happening. Somewhere someone comes up writing a rendering engine and offers it for free! Clearly this is the most achievable of all features. I would guess that hair is the most difficult. Otherwise, Inagoni or DCG would have come up with a plugin.

[achrystie]

I don't think a good developers salary is less than $100.000 and if you have 5 or 6 of them working on a product it sured add up. Plus add the marking people, QA people, website people etc and you have a very high cost of software development. That is why most software companies have investors to help pay the bills and many times software sales alone do not fully cover the cost of a version development.
Say for example "Modeler SUPERDUPER 1.0" sells for $99 intro price and it sells 3,000 copies. Is that enough to cover all of the development time? Why $297,000 sounds like lots of money. It sure doesn't cover the salary of 5 developers, marking manager, CEO, VP and the rest of the team. So SUPERDuPER 2.0 needs to come out next and hopefully add more users but many times it will only sell as an upgrade to current customers.
In many cases if you can sell additional items to go alone with Modeler SUPERDUPER such as CD, DVD, Books and should I dare say it CONTENT to help add more income to the company. It will help continue development or you are better off selling Modeler SUPERDUPER to company X that has more cash to cover cost.

No doubt it would add up that way, but why does it take five developers and a year or more full of time to write a cloth plugin? I mean I don't code every day, but I've written my fair share of code, and read some online about the common models used for something like cloth simulation, and based on that knowledge and research, I find it very hard to believe that it would take that much of an investment to write a cloth plugin, or even a standalone cloth simulator. I'm not saying it would be easy, but one or two good programmers, working in their spare time after work for 6 months to a year should easily be able to put at least a "basic" cloth simulator together.
Here are some examples:
Blender just added a sculpting mode, which was developed by only a couple guys, in less time.
The bullet physics engine that is in blender, was developed by one guy.
The fluids simulation in blender is developed, I think, by one guy.
There is one guy working on developing a full toolset for the hair implementation in blender.
The sculpting that is now integrated into blender, again, started and originally developed, as Sharpconstruct, by...one guy.
Those are all Blender examples, but I can find more for other commercial applications I'm sure.

All of these things were done in a year or less for the most part. They continue to be changed and refined, but they function well, and didn't cost a team of five guys at $100,000 "each" to do. I can see having five guys at $100,000 each to develop the entire Carrara software, sure, but not to write one plugin. Most plugin developers are, or start out as, one person who writes a plugin in their spare time, then if the plugin is universally accepted, that one person might expand a bit and start doing plugins full time and/or bringing on some help/partners. Why would developing Carrara plugins be any different?

I'll say yet again, however, that developing for Carrara is a gamble at this point. There is a lack of communication from DAZ as to not only "what" they are putting in Carrara 6, but what market they will continue to go after with Carrara. That's a lot of risk for someone to spend their spare time writing code, only to find out it's already been done by the Carrara developers, or they've developed a plugin for a piece of software that has a market that isn't interested in the functionality of that plugin, at the price point it needs to be sold at. That's the primary issue, not the development cost.

[jbshorty]

Originally Posted by Sketchy

What you could expect to see in C6, imho, with almost 100% certainty is more rendering power, which could, most likely, rival Modo's. It may even be better...

Modo 203 was just announced, with render times 40% faster than Modo 202, which was already faster than 201, which was already crazy fast! I agree there will probably be major improvements such as faster preview speed, improved OpenGL for assembly room, better SSS, MUCH larger polygon counts for rendering, and higher object smoothing levels (Modo goes up 20+ levels). all these things would be great. But i wouldn't expect it to catch Modo anytime soon. Let's hope i'm wrong...

[Sketchy]

Just as there are people who love textures and more textures--organic things which have become even more achievable with the advent of sculpting tools--there are also people who love rendering inorganic things. Jewelries, electronic items, Home Depot stuff. I am one of those. I like rendering smooth, shiny things. Man, if you're like me and still a noob, get Carrara. Use the preset metals by dragging and dropping them in your model. Copper, gold, silver, you name it, then put some lights anywhere plus your favorite hdri image, render and you'll immediately see your shiny metals rendered in all their glory! That's how easy it is in Carrara. Who said Carrara is going to die? When I was a noob, well, I'm still a noob in theory, all I wanted to render is gold. Hehe...

[jbshorty]

Originally Posted by Sketchy

..Use the preset metals by dragging and dropping them in your model. Copper, gold, silver, you name it, then put some lights anywhere plus your favorite hdri image, render and you'll immediately see your shiny metals rendered in all their glory!...

Yep. That's exactly why i bought Carrara. Because Rhino's Flamingo 1.1 engine had no HDRI or environment mapping. I just bought Modo a few weeks ago, and haven't even touched the renderer yet. Really I bought Modo out of frustration. Hex has gone completely wonky on both of my PC's to the point of being unusable. And i always hated Carrara's "room" based modeling approach. So i bought Modo. And i am now waiting for McNeel/Splutterfish to finish developing the Brazil render engine for Rhino 4. Either way, i may be done using Carrara for rendering. But i still love building shaders with my DCG and Shoestring plugins. I figure those will always be handy as a texturing utility, no matter what happens in Carrara's future...

[Wася]

8 partners (listed on DAZ web-site) who make from 1-3 to dozen of plug-ins for Carrara mean nothing? Ok. Cool.
I know no third-party plug-in for Shade at all. So what? They are dead also? After twenty years... What a shame...
Business diversification always needs a time. They in DAZ not only make DAZ|Studio, they already made Hex 2.1 update, Carrara MAC UB, Bryce 6.0, and yesterday they introduced Bryce 6.1 full update. And, by the way, TransPoser still gives better result in Poser dynamic hair rendering than PoserFusion.
So I will make my conclusion after Carrara 6 and Hex 3.

[medeamajic]

Wacr,

Bryce 6.1? It should be Bryce 7.5 not 6.1. Did the 6.0 update include a vertex Modeler or 3-D paint? Does it include bones and morhping? Is it over all a minor update like in the past? Bryce gets a few things added here and there but nothing major.

There are a few decent pluggins for Carrara but not anything like you see for 3DS MAX. If Daz would market Carrara better it might happen.

[Wася]

Oh, yeah. As usual. Are you missing same ridiculous modeling features you may find in Vue (up to $800)? Just asking.

And when they will make Carrara 6, will you blame DAZ they still does not offer features like Max, Maya et al do?

Cinema 4D Mocca module - 420 EUR, Scetch and Toon - 420 EUR, Thinking Particles - 325 EUR, Net Renderer - 325 EUR, Mograph - 325 EUR, Hair - 325 EUR, Dynamics - 325 EUR. Don't forget about Cinema 4D Base inself!
Maya Unlimited - $6000. Max - $3500.

Carrara 5.1 Pro - $550 (I got it at about $200)

So if Carrara 10 will become XSI, how much do you ready to pay for all this features?

[transient]

Most Max plug-ins cost more than Carrara Pro.

I think expecting Carrara to have as much grunt as Max or Maya is extremely unrealistic.

[Wася]

Absolutely.
Yesterday seeking toon render plugin I found very cool one for for Max & Maya. $600 for one node, and $1500 for a network rendering.

[Piem]

Originally Posted by transient

I think expecting Carrara to have as much grunt as Max or Maya is extremely unrealistic.

I Agree.
Carrara is already a very nice tool, even if the UI is not as pro (that means not as productive) as wanted.
I like it a lot, because of the final result --> Nice images

[ewinemiller]

Originally Posted by Wася

Absolutely.
Yesterday seeking toon render plugin I found very cool one for for Max & Maya. $600 for one node, and $1500 for a network rendering.

Wow! I am so in the wrong market.

Regards,

[Wася]

Yes, Eric. FinalToon. That made up my mind to buy your Toon! Pro.
And I see I need to hurry (What have I done!)

[Sketchy]

Originally Posted by jbshorty

...i bought Modo. And i am now waiting for McNeel/Splutterfish to finish developing the Brazil render engine for Rhino 4. Either way, i may be done using Carrara for rendering. But i still love building shaders with my DCG and Shoestring plugins. I figure those will always be handy as a texturing utility, no matter what happens in Carrara's future...

Might as well tinker with Modo's renderer sometime next week or the next. I don't know. I have very simple needs right now. I've taken my unfinished drill in Shade and Blender. Carrara just had the simplest and fastest, at least in my system.



...am moving on and try finishing some models I started, no not Carrara's modeler...

[jbshorty]

Originally Posted by Sketchy

... I've taken my unfinished drill in Shade and Blender. Carrara just had the simplest and fastest, at least in my system...

More simple than Blender?! How shocking!!!

[medeamajic]

Originally Posted by Wася

Oh, yeah. As usual. Are you missing same ridiculous modeling features you may find in Vue (up to $800)? Just asking.

And when they will make Carrara 6, will you blame DAZ they still does not offer features like Max, Maya et al do?

Cinema 4D Mocca module - 420 EUR, Scetch and Toon - 420 EUR, Thinking Particles - 325 EUR, Net Renderer - 325 EUR, Mograph - 325 EUR, Hair - 325 EUR, Dynamics - 325 EUR. Don't forget about Cinema 4D Base inself!
Maya Unlimited - $6000. Max - $3500.

Carrara 5.1 Pro - $550 (I got it at about $200)

So if Carrara 10 will become XSI, how much do you ready to pay for all this features?

You have to use a little bit of logic and wisdom rather than hyperbole. Hexagon is not 5 million dollars but it does offer symmetrical modeling not just duplicate with symmetry. MetaCreations had a 3-D Paint program that was not 5 million dollars either. RDS even had 3-D paint. Do you really think 3-D painting and duplicate with symmetry would add 5 million dollars to the price of Carrara? The use of hyperbole is fun at times so to be a little loopy I have opted to use it myself for this thread. But rather than use hyperbole it might be wise to just post that certain features would be nice and it would seem that they could be implemented in Carrara rather well at a decent upgrade price rather than at a cost of 5 billion dollars.

[medeamajic]

Originally Posted by transient

Most Max plug-ins cost more than Carrara Pro.

I think expecting Carrara to have as much grunt as Max or Maya is extremely unrealistic.

Yes and no. If there were only 2000 Maya users and 20000 Carrara users volume sales could help keep the price low. Some plugins like Boris FX were cheaper for Premiere than Avid. I would like to see Daz market Carrara and Hexagon much better.

[Sketchy]

Originally Posted by jbshorty

More simple than Blender?! How shocking!!!

That's why this Carrara-in-a-dead-end thing is shocking to me. It will never happen. It will probably take years for Blender to have this drag and drop thing that Carrara had for years. This one, for example, was rendered in Blender "manually".

[VertexSpline]

Interesting thread ..many good thoughts and opinions. Yes seems to me any plugin that was going to take 5 folks a year is never gonna make sense and probably something the main developers should be trying if they thought it would boost sales. See Adding each additional cool features helps with sales years down the road. It is not a one year sale.
As far as Carrara ending ..........Seem doubtful to me. Its simply works and works well doing a very robust toolset. Usually things that are good in the market survive and Carrara is good..very good.
Personally I am still digging into it so I do not need Carrara 6 today..but am very pleased to know the developers are working on the next version. And if you have been watching this little application has taken bigger steps with each version number. So I am thinking there are still better years ahead.
It is a rather cut throat industry but this app has alot going for it.
As to a cool demo reel.....that is really a great idea..and one that DAz should be promotting .....
Fast renders to all...