Carrara and I what to do?

[corzair]

Originally Posted by dbigers

Are you using the mousewheel to zoom in and out of a perspective view? I know the program allows you to do it, but it isnt advised. There is a plugin from Associated FX that will reset the production frame if you zoom with the mousewheel or the magnifying glass in perspective.

If that isnt what you are talking about, sorry. From your screen it looks like the zoom level is 100%. But once the production frame gets screwed up it will still be distorted even after correcting the zoom level.

Yeah thats probably it - but it shouldnt let you do it!
very confusing if your starting out!
You shouldn't need a plug in to sort out this sort of thing!

Oh well quirks aside its a nice package but frustrating at times....

[Nichod]

You don't need a plugin to fix this sort of thing. Just don't do it. The problem is that you are using the 2D tools to manipulate 3D space. Thats not a bug, but using the wrong tools to navigate your view. Thats why the zoom, pan and render are labeled 2D tools. And I believe reseting your 3D view should fix the problem. Not completely sure though since I've never done this. I'll try it when I get home.

Use the 3D tools the W key to "pan" and E key "zoom". And of course alt to "rotate". You can zoom using the 2D zoom if you wish. But I'd recommend it being a temporary thing, since you are distorting your perspective by zooming. Just remember to zoom back to 100% when done.

[jones2000u]

Just to come back on that zoom distortion thing - there's a note about it in the manual. If you pull the camera wayyyyyyyy back and switch to to zoom lens, it kills off the wacky distortions you get from panning into extreme corners or if you get a bit carried away with the mouse zoom (if that's what you're talking about). The angles (particaularly verticals) are much better, but the downside is that it gets more difficult to alter the camera angle precisely, presumably because the projected line of sight is much much longer. My cure is to have a camera for each major view angle - left, right, front, director, etc..., all positioned quite a long way further out than default


erm.... shouldn't this be a new thread?

[dbigers]

Originally Posted by Nichod

You don't need a plugin to fix this sort of thing. Just don't do it. The problem is that you are using the 2D tools to manipulate 3D space. Thats not a bug, but using the wrong tools to navigate your view. Thats why the zoom, pan and render are labeled 2D tools. And I believe reseting your 3D view should fix the problem. Not completely sure though since I've never done this. I'll try it when I get home.

Use the 3D tools the W key to "pan" and E key "zoom". And of course alt to "rotate". You can zoom using the 2D zoom if you wish. But I'd recommend it being a temporary thing, since you are distorting your perspective by zooming. Just remember to zoom back to 100% when done.

Umm, no it isnt a bug. However, considering how many times this question has been asked over the years I would say it is something that should be addressed. The tools should not be available in a perspective window, pretty simple. Not to mention I use the mouse wheel at times in the sequencer. Sometimes Carrara zooms in the scene window instead of scrolling the sequencer. Admittedly it is only on very complex scenes and it could be my fault. But that is not the point, the tools should not be available in the perspective windows.

Regardless of the fact that it isnt a bug, it isnt a good UI convention either. The user should not have the option to use the wrong tools in the wrong window. Seems a simple fix. I do find it amazing that you have never done it. I dont do it on purpose since I know they are not for the perspective view, but it has happened to me many a time. And there are times when it happens that simply resetting the zoom setting does not correct it. Especially if the camera was moved while it was zoomed in, something gets screwed up. In that case the only thing one can do is to create a new camera and set it to one of the views from the camera that is messed up, or just download the Reset Production Frame plugin since it is free.

[McHannemann]

Originally Posted by Nichod

I'm not sure what it tells us about that, but it does show that you have no clue what you are talking about. Victoria 4 isn't just a model. Its textures are much more than a single artist could create in a few weeks. Not to mention its two models a high poly version and a low poly. Both specially built. Along with that hundreds and possibly thousands of morphs targets were created to allow the model to be animated or reshaped easily. The face alone has ~240 morph targets. I would say Victoria 4 is more like a small application.

Hi Nichod,

I must say that LoneGunmann is right in one point, the devtime of Vic4 is a bit long let's say... I do work in the bizz and seeing how our Modellers smash out chars for the intro movies, ingame ect. let me guess that the guys at DAZ really were either extreeemly slow or just dropping hundreds versions of the model before getting close to say happy and even texturing a 4kx4k texture doesn't take 2 years... seen stuff like that done in a week. So i must sadly admit that LoneGunmann hits there a point, as well as the upgrade policy with Daz.
Bryce is the best example, I thaught after getting Hex 2 that the bugs where due to an unfinished product and that daz will go for fixing properly and so on, which is not the case with some of the most important features like texture painting I just say seems...
and then Bryce 6 came, the thing is unstable, constantly crashing and even the readme states directly that most of the features are not working...
Sadly we got again a Pre-Beta/Beta stage product from daz
or with Carrara what do they first?
run for the universal binary for the mac, I checked the bug tracker for carrara and we had more request for fixes than ever a request forthe universal binary at all... kind of weird for me
In that way I have to 100% second LoneGunmann.

And one last thing is that I pretty much also do not like to check for a update of the software and have to look at 1 million poser figure products, the stuff is ok for beginners who cannot model and want to try out 3D but carrara was intended to become more pro so I would like a seperate website for the products like Carrara, Bryce and Hexagon to give them at least a better base.

Thor

[Nichod]

Originally Posted by dbigers

Umm, no it isnt a bug. However, considering how many times this question has been asked over the years I would say it is something that should be addressed. The tools should not be available in a perspective window, pretty simple. Not to mention I use the mouse wheel at times in the sequencer. Sometimes Carrara zooms in the scene window instead of scrolling the sequencer. Admittedly it is only on very complex scenes and it could be my fault. But that is not the point, the tools should not be available in the perspective windows.

Regardless of the fact that it isnt a bug, it isnt a good UI convention either. The user should not have the option to use the wrong tools in the wrong window. Seems a simple fix. I do find it amazing that you have never done it. I dont do it on purpose since I know they are not for the perspective view, but it has happened to me many a time. And there are times when it happens that simply resetting the zoom setting does not correct it. Especially if the camera was moved while it was zoomed in, something gets screwed up. In that case the only thing one can do is to create a new camera and set it to one of the views from the camera that is messed up, or just download the Reset Production Frame plugin since it is free.

There was discussion with the development team for Carrara 4 (I believe) of relocating the toolbar. Not much on removing the tools from the view. I don't think they should be removed from working with perspective views because they can be useful in certain applications. So I wouldn't consider them the wrong tools for perspective view. Just the wrong tools for what you were attempting to do. This is user error. Though I do think that adjusting the mouse mapping could solve this problem. That way we could link the correct navigation tool to the middle mouse wheel. And nope, I don't do it. I always have my hands on the w, e and alt keys to navigate. Though I've been using Carrara since version 1, so I might have a little experience up on you. I do feel your pain, I used to switch to the storyboard room all the time. And that was back when generally you'd freeze Carrara when you did that.

[Nichod]

Originally Posted by McHannemann

Hi Nichod,

I must say that LoneGunmann is right in one point, the devtime of Vic4 is a bit long let's say... I do work in the bizz and seeing how our Modellers smash out chars for the intro movies, ingame ect. let me guess that the guys at DAZ really were either extreeemly slow or just dropping hundreds versions of the model before getting close to say happy and even texturing a 4kx4k texture doesn't take 2 years... seen stuff like that done in a week. So i must sadly admit that LoneGunmann hits there a point, as well as the upgrade policy with Daz.

I've also done work in the "bizz" and most models are not nearly as complex as V4. I have seen very few with anywhere near the amount of Morph targets Vicky has. Show me a game model with 240 facial morph targets. Plus, do any of you have a clue when they actually started V4? I don't. I agree on the textures, that doesn't take long, but the thousands of morphs might take some time, along with the planning stage of deciding what would be the ideal morph areas, etc. I'm not saying they aren't slow, personally I think with some things they are. But we have no clue how long they were working on Vicky.

Bryce is the best example, I thought after getting Hex 2 that the bugs where due to an unfinished product and that daz will go for fixing properly and so on, which is not the case with some of the most important features like texture painting I just say seems...

I completely agree on this. But as I've said and has been said they are building a development team for Hex. This takes time. I love Hexagon, but it disappoints me as well.

and then Bryce 6 came, the thing is unstable, constantly crashing and even the readme states directly that most of the features are not working...

I can't say anything on Bryce. I don't really use it.

Sadly we got again a Pre-Beta/Beta stage product from daz
or with Carrara what do they first?
run for the universal binary for the mac, I checked the bug tracker for carrara and we had more request for fixes than ever a request forthe universal binary at all... kind of weird for me

I didn't like that myself. Since the MAC users only consist of about 15% of the Carrara market. As least at Eovia time. Not sure now. But I do understand why they did it, its a matter of staying compatible with the times. I'm sure we'll see something similar in another year or two in regards to vista. I find Carrara very stable. Missing features that I'd like to see, but stable.

And one last thing is that I pretty much also do not like to check for a update of the software and have to look at 1 million poser figure products, the stuff is ok for beginners who cannot model and want to try out 3D but carrara was intended to become more pro so I would like a seperate website for the products like Carrara, Bryce and Hexagon to give them at least a better base.

I agree. Lets put this to a close. I welcome discussions like this as its always a good idea to rant and just get it out. But lets go back to being productive.

Carrara 5 was released last year. And they follow a 1-2 year development cycle and as far as I know they are on track with this for Carrara 6.

[McHannemann]

Hope too that there will be some improvement,
it would be nice, for the time now it looks like I might
switch to Maya ...

THor

[Nichod]

Originally Posted by McHannemann

Hope too that there will be some improvement,
it would be nice, for the time now it looks like I might
switch to Maya ...

THor

Goodluck with that. I'd use Maya if I worked in a big studio. But as a complete package for specific jobs and tasks. Forget it.

[ronjurman]

Originally Posted by Nichod

Carrara 5 was released last year. And they follow a 1-2 year development cycle and as far as I know they are on track with this for Carrara 6.

Carrara has had 5 releases in 5 years (and at about the same time each year, if memory serves me). Is the "1-2 year developement cycle" new (at least the "-2 year" part) with DAZ?

rj

[Nichod]

Carrara has had 5 releases in 5 years (and at about the same time each year, if memory serves me). Is the "1-2 year developement cycle" new with DAZ?

You are correct. And no its not new. About 1-2 years they release a new version. I believe it ends up being 18 months between versions.

Of course I could be wrong. :-d

[crazy wabbit]

I say lets all live at peace and come back in a year to see what has happened with Daz. Day by day new programs are introduced and we are all free to jump ships. I know for me it was very hard to leave truespace, but that goes with everything us humans are used to.

We do not like the risk or extra work.
So lets see what happens with time.

[dbigers]

Originally Posted by Nichod

There was discussion with the development team for Carrara 4 (I believe) of relocating the toolbar. Not much on removing the tools from the view. I don't think they should be removed from working with perspective views because they can be useful in certain applications. So I wouldn't consider them the wrong tools for perspective view. Just the wrong tools for what you were attempting to do. This is user error. Though I do think that adjusting the mouse mapping could solve this problem. That way we could link the correct navigation tool to the middle mouse wheel. And nope, I don't do it. I always have my hands on the w, e and alt keys to navigate. Though I've been using Carrara since version 1, so I might have a little experience up on you. I do feel your pain, I used to switch to the storyboard room all the time. And that was back when generally you'd freeze Carrara when you did that.

Please try reading my post before responding. I was not "trying" to do anything other than scrolling through the sequencer. As for the shortcuts, I use them too, I dont use the tools on the side of the screen, never have with any app that has shortcuts. It slows down productivity. As I said, I had a problem with the mousewheel and trying to scroll through a long list in the sequencer not with using the wrong tools on the side of the screen.

As for the tools and their availability, call it user error if you want, the problem is the user shouldnt be able to make such an error that simply and I still find it hard to believe that those tools are useful in perspective mode. If they are, it certainly isnt often enough to have them available all the time. As for using Carrara since version 1, like I already said I use the shortcuts as well, in this program along with a dozen others. I dont think it has anything to do with "experience". Yes I have only used Carrara since C3 Studio, but I think since I use it daily in a professional capacity I think I have enough experience with it. So read again, it doesnt matter if it is user error or not, the user has very little need for these tools in perspective mode. Regardless of whether you do it or I do it, enough people have done it over the years. Either by accident or because they thought the tool was for that view.

Is that clearer?

[Nichod]

Originally Posted by dbigers

Please try reading my post before responding. I was not "trying" to do anything other than scrolling through the sequencer. As for the shortcuts, I use them too, I dont use the tools on the side of the screen, never have with any app that has shortcuts. It slows down productivity. As I said, I had a problem with the mousewheel and trying to scroll through a long list in the sequencer not with using the wrong tools on the side of the screen.

I did read your post. Thanks for the suggestion though. I assumed that you didn't use the tool buttons. My comment on the icons was not in regards to what you used, but rather me pointing out that some discussion had been made in regards to the validity of the tools being there, and their linkage with the 3D view. Odd you had a problem with the 3D view changing while scrolling. I assume if this is something you can repeat that you filed a bug? If not I'd suggest doing it.

As for the tools and their availability, call it user error if you want, the problem is the user shouldnt be able to make such an error that simply and I still find it hard to believe that those tools are useful in perspective mode.

I think they are useful to a limited extent. I think I rarely ever use them in the 3D view. But I see no point in removing them. Some examples when I HAVE used the 2D tools for: panning is useful when you are pointing the camera at an object and don't want to move the camera from its position to check where another object is in relation to the camera. Zooming is useful in a large scene, terrain for instance, in which you don't want to take the time to manually move into an area to see something for placement. Then zoom back out to 100%. It is faster to zoom.

If they are, it certainly isnt often enough to have them available all the time.

I don't use the NPR alot. Should it then be removed? No. Keep the features. Just learn to use the proper tool for the job. You are talking about removing features because of user error. Which doesn't make sense. As I said. Rather then removing the tools, lets analyze a solution to prevent user error. A good alternative to solve your primary problem would be to be able to remap the mouse so you can then have the scroll wheel do what you want. And we could go even farther and you can specify that the scroll wheel zooms in ortho and doesn't in perspective. Just removing the option is a bad idea in my opinion. And a poor solution to the problem.

As for using Carrara since version 1, like I already said I use the shortcuts as well, in this program along with a dozen others. I dont think it has anything to do with "experience". Yes I have only used Carrara since C3 Studio, but I think since I use it daily in a professional capacity I think I have enough experience with it. So read again, it doesnt matter if it is user error or not, the user has very little need for these tools in perspective mode. Regardless of whether you do it or I do it, enough people have done it over the years. Either by accident or because they thought the tool was for that view.

Is that clearer?

Its still user error. Lets rework how the tool can function, as I stated above, not talk about removing the tool. Would you agree that the idea seems like a good solution? This way it leaves the option to do a 2D view for those that so wish.

[dbigers]

Uhh, I didnt say to remove the tools all together. I said they should not be accesible for the perspective view, I thought that was clear. They should be there for the regular 2d views. They should be reworked or the option should be given for the user to turn them off in perspective mode.

As for filing a bug. I mentioned before that it may have been my fault and that it happens in busy scenes. Let me explain that better. In a busy scene if I am working in the viewport and then go down to the sequencer, sometimes instead of scrolling the in the sequencer the viewport still has the focus, because Carrara gets behind. But it would not matter if the ability to zoom in a perspective could be turned off.

The examples you gave for needing the zoom in perspective dont make sense in my own workflow. If I need to see where something is at I just switch to a 3 or 4 panel view. As for zooming being quicker than moving the camera, yeah obviously. But you could also use the zoom on the camera itself.

I came from using Lightwave, you know what, the ability to zoom in the perspective window of the camera is not there, so that is what I am used to. Why is that? Lets see, because in the context of a 3D scene it doesnt make sense if you are already viewing "through" a camera to magnify that view without actually physically doing anything to the camera. It leads to confusion. Obviously not for you, but for the rest of us users who commit "user errors" it does. It seems that a lot of people work differently than you, just the same a lot of people work differently than me.

I think it best to leave it at that.

[medeamajic]

I do not use the Zoom tool at all. I have had Carrara get funky warped images with the correct camera controls for Camera 1. I still like Carrara.

[Nichod]

Originally Posted by dbigers

Uhh, I didnt say to remove the tools all together. I said they should not be accesible for the perspective view, I thought that was clear. They should be there for the regular 2d views. They should be reworked or the option should be given for the user to turn them off in perspective mode.

You were clear. I like the option idea. Though do you think that remapping the mouse would work for you? As it would be nice if we could hit two birds with one stone.

As for filing a bug. I mentioned before that it may have been my fault and that it happens in busy scenes. Let me explain that better. In a busy scene if I am working in the viewport and then go down to the sequencer, sometimes instead of scrolling the in the sequencer the viewport still has the focus, because Carrara gets behind. But it would not matter if the ability to zoom in a perspective could be turned off.

I'd file that as a bug. Or perhaps its purely lag. Only happens with large scenes?

The examples you gave for needing the zoom in perspective dont make sense in my own workflow. If I need to see where something is at I just switch to a 3 or 4 panel view. As for zooming being quicker than moving the camera, yeah obviously. But you could also use the zoom on the camera itself.

Yeah. We all work differently. I usually use a 2 panel or single view. I don't really use the examples I gave frequently. Its just something I have done before. I never really use the camera view until I'm at the final stages and need to frame the shots.

I came from using Lightwave, you know what, the ability to zoom in the perspective window of the camera is not there, so that is what I am used to. Why is that? Lets see, because in the context of a 3D scene it doesnt make sense if you are already viewing "through" a camera to magnify that view without actually physically doing anything to the camera.

Makes sense. But we aren't in a physical world. And as I said. To some its an advantage. To you. Perhaps not. Its really not an advantage to me, because I like you truely only use the 2D tools in the ortho views. I never could get into LW beyond the modeler. Last version I bought of LW was 5.6. Often considered the last version of the golden age of LW. hehe. Before that I used Bryce and 3D studio DOS! I've dabbled with XSI, Messiah, Blender, etc. and as much as we complain. I do think Carrara has one of the most artist oriented designs out there. Yet it still has enough for the engineer to produce detailed quality work.

What annoys me more... is that the ortho views are stuck in 2D. In most other programs I've used, Hexagon for instance, if you try and rotate the view it will give you a 3D ortho view of the scene. Something I find myself attempting time and time again.

It leads to confusion. Obviously not for you, but for the rest of us users who commit "user errors" it does. It seems that a lot of people work differently than you, just the same a lot of people work differently than me.

Very true. I do hope you aren't getting hostile over this. As there is no reason. I don't disagree that there may be issues with the way things function. And we see that we agree on not removing the tools. More options are always good. Watch. I'll go home and start up Carrara only to zoom with the middle mouse and I'll screw up my camera. If I do..I'm blaming you!!!

[dbigers]

Hostile? No, never when it comes to something like software. Besides it is too close to Christmas and too many things to be thankful for to be hostile. Having said that, Happy Holidays to you and yours. Have a safe and Happy New Year!!

[medeamajic]

An orthoganal view should not rotate on 3-D axis. Carrara is laid out great for orthoganal views. Orthoganal views are synthetic man made 2-D/3-D views that you can pan only.

You can add more cameras to get control form other angles.

The orthoganal view goes beyond what a human can view. Machine shops spend 50,000.00 dollars for optical gauges that give true orthoganal views to guage parts although they can not do it 100%.

If I had a perfect transparent box/square 5 feet in size the inside corners at the back of the box/square would apear to move inward (vanishing point) with any camera or the human eye. With the orthoganal view they remian parrellel and hidden.


I like the camera controls and orthoganal views of Carrara even if it does glitch up at times.