[Carrara] Lighting a dark bottle - Polyloop

Bittles · 4th January 2008, 08:30

OK my skills are very basic. What I am trying to do is create better layouts of the labels I design. I have been putzing all night with this dark bottle. I do like the diffuse highlights rather than hard highlights. I achieved it by accident because I kept applying different shaders to try to get the color I wanted. Is there a way to replace a shader rather than add to it? t seems when I drag a shader it adds to the tree. Any suggestions for getting a more glassy looking black? I used one of Mark Bremmers studio Lighting tutorials to get where I got.

bwtr · 4th January 2008, 09:40

A quick thought.
Add a light into the inside of the bottle. (adjusting it's intensity as necessary) and adjusting the Transparency value of the bottle shader as necessary. (Add the 0-100% value to that Transparence item in the shader and adjust)

Kilroy · 4th January 2008, 13:15

One key to realism with glass (and metal) objects is to have realistic reflections.
Use an environment around your scene.

Once you have them, adjust the highlights that look a bit too diffuse and soft to me.

Dann-O · 5th January 2008, 05:37

Well get a godo HDRI map to give good reflections and good light too. It looks nic elike a frosted glass. If you want ti more glassy get tighter highlights by adjusting the gloss of the bottle. (terminology changes between apps sorry)

jones2000u · 10th January 2008, 03:19

My pennyworth: I do wine labels as well! I make bottles with thick walls - so the polys are actually like if you cut a bottle in half: it has a thickness rather than a skin. Then I put a volume inside for the liquid. I colour the liquid to roughly what white/red wine looks like. And then I colour the bottle glass to roughly what it looks like without wine inside it. After that you have light passing through several object layers, just like in the real world.

In a studio, a photographer spends most of his time trying to kill reflections, so I would keep them to a minimum personally. Diffuse is nice, but really glass doesn't give diffuse reflections in a bottle - it's more a slight bump because the glass is cheap. If the highlights are too smooth they don't look real, even in top class advertising shots.

One of the keys to rendering bottles is to keep the raytracing value high for both the glass and the liquid shaders as well as in the render room (a Mark Bremmer tip) - around 14 or 16 or more if you have time. Then you get quite good depth in the colours because the calculations read through the object instead of bouncing off it.

Brian's suggestion is good - a better one is to put a white light behind because you can control how much light blasts through the bottle and wine. Messing about with its position left and right can give you nice results as well. For a whisky a pack photographer might put a lump of gold card behind the bottle so the front lights reflect back a richer yellow in the centre of the bottle etc etc

So you can pretty much use the Carrara standard shaders out of the can - it's all adjustable in the lighting

jones2000u · 10th January 2008, 03:24

Forgot to say - is that a jupiter bottle? I have a double skin template I made if you want it!

jbshorty · 10th January 2008, 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by jones2000u

...Diffuse is nice, but really glass doesn't give diffuse reflections in a bottle - it's more a slight bump because the glass is cheap...

Yup. I always add a slight bump using a very broad and low contrasted procedural noise. It really helps sell the realism of moulded glass bottles which are always slightly bumpy from shrinking as they cool down...

shorty

Bittles · 10th January 2008, 08:13

What's a Jupiter bottle? And a double skin template? Attached is where I left it for now. I will improve it as I work with it. Not going for pure realism, the client prefers diffuse highlights.

jones2000u · 15th January 2008, 04:06

I think that's pretty nice as it is. A jupiter bottle is a heavy tapered bottle similar to the one you have here. Double skinned means that the bottle shape is drawn with an inside and outside surface to the glass - like if you were doing a wineglass, you wouldn't just have an outside, you would have an inside as well.

Your label works nicely - is that a separate object, or a shader on the glass?

Personally I would cut back the amount of empty background a lot to make your bottle more important - you'll be surprised at the difference it makes.

rickei · 15th January 2008, 06:26

this looks pretty good, but I can see where the rectangle label is applied (the diffusion stops)

will the label be die cut with the rough edges, or printed on a transparent label? that would make a difference with the final product

the glass looks great to me

jones2000 is right about the background. maybe use a curved background

jbshorty · 15th January 2008, 07:13

adding to what Rickei already said - It would help if the label has a slight bump to it, so it looks like a physical object on top of the glass. It's a minor detail but will defnitely help sell the image.

shorty

Bittles · 16th January 2008, 04:46

I have the label on a duplicate of the bottle which is transparent. The label is slightly in front so it doesn't get crazy patterns from sitting in the exact spot as the bottle. The label and cap have separate spots. The label would not be on clear PS or dye-cut. It does have a black rectangle border so I do like that it shows. I am not sure what to do to make the paper look more like cold-press paper.

I am not clear on what you mean about the background. What do you mean by a curved background? I need to format this for 8.5 by 11 printouts which show the full package top to bottom.

I would love your double skin template it would be fun to play around with. This bottle is so dark and the liquid is dark that it has no transparency on the shelf. I do all types of wine and so I'll have to puzzle out transparency another day.

This is one of 10 layouts that I did and they really liked the realistic look.

rickei · 16th January 2008, 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bittles

I have the label on a duplicate of the bottle which is transparent. The label is slightly in front so it doesn't get crazy patterns from sitting in the exact spot as the bottle. The label and cap have separate spots. The label would not be on clear PS or dye-cut. It does have a black rectangle border so I do like that it shows. I am not sure what to do to make the paper look more like cold-press paper.

gotcha...a label with a black background, well in that case it looks great.
like Shorty said you could add a very slight bump to the label. for a real cold pressed paper look, just scan a piece of paper with the texture you want and stick it in the bump channel

as for the curved background...instead of explaining it, just look at Grendel's scene setup here
http://forums.polyloop.net/3d-work-p...tml#post160657

bwtr · 16th January 2008, 06:20

Next fresh canned bread!
(Are drinks still supplied in steel cans?)

Nate Owens · 16th January 2008, 14:35

Love your bottle.

The most distracting thing in the piece is that hard edge horizon line behind your bottle....
A soft-focus gradient rich dark-blue background with blurred "circles of diffusion" (as with Photoshop Gaussian Blur) would add sharpness to your product and really make it stand out. A bit of faint rim-light along the edges of the bottle would really make it snap. Good work!

Brian...
I think you are lost with the steel can thing from another thread. I saw them in Japan, but that was about 8 years ago.

3webjam · 1st February 2008, 14:51

Sure looks good - can imagine that the client is very happy with this!
Jacqueline

Bittles · 2nd February 2008, 05:16

Yeah Jacqueline, I used this bottle to present 8 concepts. That design above I happen to like but we didn't show that. It was a big presentation and everyone was thrilled!

I am now working on a Pinot bottle. Its sort of a challenge.

jones2000u · 25th February 2008, 23:34

Bittles, I'm so so sorry - I clean forgot to upload the templates for you. I am an idiot.

The bottle sizes are weird - they were done in Carrara 5 and the new scene sizes in C6 have sent the numerical dimensions to some other Carrara planet. Lighting isn't brilliant and the capsules could be better, but I've included my label wrap textures, because you might be able to speed things up from them. I stuffed in a bordeaux screwcap as well. I do my labels on a transparent tube around the bottle so that I can have one standard "space" artwork that I then use for label shaders and alpha channels. I think that makes sense... I turned off soft shadows for render speed, but you get much better colours with soft shadows turned on.

Bittles · 19th March 2008, 03:19

Thank you jones2000u I look forward to checking it out.

I got myself into a bit of a pickle with this project. They like the results so much I am havig to do extra work to convert old layouts to this 3D look. Also I want to improve it so how do I do that and not change all the layouts?

Anyway we got the customer, they are big in the U.S.

Bittles · 19th March 2008, 04:23

jones2000u

I reviewed your fles. So much tighter than mine. Thanks for the screw cap!

How create do you create your bottles?

The way I do it is I trace a pic of the bottle, import a path, use spline and envlope.

4th January 2008, 08:30	#1 (permalink)
Bittles Spline Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 38	[Carrara] Lighting a dark bottle OK my skills are very basic. What I am trying to do is create better layouts of the labels I design. I have been putzing all night with this dark bottle. I do like the diffuse highlights rather than hard highlights. I achieved it by accident because I kept applying different shaders to try to get the color I wanted. Is there a way to replace a shader rather than add to it? t seems when I drag a shader it adds to the tree. Any suggestions for getting a more glassy looking black? I used one of Mark Bremmers studio Lighting tutorials to get where I got. Attached Thumbnails

10th January 2008, 08:13	#8 (permalink)
Bittles Spline Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 38	What's a Jupiter bottle? And a double skin template? Attached is where I left it for now. I will improve it as I work with it. Not going for pure realism, the client prefers diffuse highlights. Attached Thumbnails

16th January 2008, 14:35	#15 (permalink)
Nate Owens Doodlin' Dude Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Carolina, USA Posts: 1,005	Love your bottle. The most distracting thing in the piece is that hard edge horizon line behind your bottle.... A soft-focus gradient rich dark-blue background with blurred "circles of diffusion" (as with Photoshop Gaussian Blur) would add sharpness to your product and really make it stand out. A bit of faint rim-light along the edges of the bottle would really make it snap. Good work! Brian... I think you are lost with the steel can thing from another thread. I saw them in Japan, but that was about 8 years ago. __________________ Shirts, MousePads, Stuff / The Gallery / Videos / Blog

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4th January 2008, 09:40	#2 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,094	A quick thought. Add a light into the inside of the bottle. (adjusting it's intensity as necessary) and adjusting the Transparency value of the bottle shader as necessary. (Add the 0-100% value to that Transparence item in the shader and adjust)

4th January 2008, 13:15	#3 (permalink)
Kilroy Vertex Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Val de Marne, France Posts: 9	One key to realism with glass (and metal) objects is to have realistic reflections. Use an environment around your scene. Once you have them, adjust the highlights that look a bit too diffuse and soft to me.

5th January 2008, 05:37	#4 (permalink)
Dann-O AKA Monkey King Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Erie Pennsylvania Posts: 173	Well get a godo HDRI map to give good reflections and good light too. It looks nic elike a frosted glass. If you want ti more glassy get tighter highlights by adjusting the gloss of the bottle. (terminology changes between apps sorry)

10th January 2008, 03:19	#5 (permalink)
jones2000u NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 134	My pennyworth: I do wine labels as well! I make bottles with thick walls - so the polys are actually like if you cut a bottle in half: it has a thickness rather than a skin. Then I put a volume inside for the liquid. I colour the liquid to roughly what white/red wine looks like. And then I colour the bottle glass to roughly what it looks like without wine inside it. After that you have light passing through several object layers, just like in the real world. In a studio, a photographer spends most of his time trying to kill reflections, so I would keep them to a minimum personally. Diffuse is nice, but really glass doesn't give diffuse reflections in a bottle - it's more a slight bump because the glass is cheap. If the highlights are too smooth they don't look real, even in top class advertising shots. One of the keys to rendering bottles is to keep the raytracing value high for both the glass and the liquid shaders as well as in the render room (a Mark Bremmer tip) - around 14 or 16 or more if you have time. Then you get quite good depth in the colours because the calculations read through the object instead of bouncing off it. Brian's suggestion is good - a better one is to put a white light behind because you can control how much light blasts through the bottle and wine. Messing about with its position left and right can give you nice results as well. For a whisky a pack photographer might put a lump of gold card behind the bottle so the front lights reflect back a richer yellow in the centre of the bottle etc etc So you can pretty much use the Carrara standard shaders out of the can - it's all adjustable in the lighting

10th January 2008, 03:24	#6 (permalink)
jones2000u NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 134	Forgot to say - is that a jupiter bottle? I have a double skin template I made if you want it!

15th January 2008, 04:06	#9 (permalink)
jones2000u NURBS Booleans are your friend Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 134	I think that's pretty nice as it is. A jupiter bottle is a heavy tapered bottle similar to the one you have here. Double skinned means that the bottle shape is drawn with an inside and outside surface to the glass - like if you were doing a wineglass, you wouldn't just have an outside, you would have an inside as well. Your label works nicely - is that a separate object, or a shader on the glass? Personally I would cut back the amount of empty background a lot to make your bottle more important - you'll be surprised at the difference it makes.

15th January 2008, 06:26	#10 (permalink)
rickei Respect the Dawg! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: USA - Conway, South Carolina Posts: 791	this looks pretty good, but I can see where the rectangle label is applied (the diffusion stops) will the label be die cut with the rough edges, or printed on a transparent label? that would make a difference with the final product the glass looks great to me jones2000 is right about the background. maybe use a curved background

15th January 2008, 07:13	#11 (permalink)
jbshorty proud to be a nurb Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: only in your mind Posts: 1,362	adding to what Rickei already said - It would help if the label has a slight bump to it, so it looks like a physical object on top of the glass. It's a minor detail but will defnitely help sell the image. shorty

16th January 2008, 04:46	#12 (permalink)
Bittles Spline Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 38	I have the label on a duplicate of the bottle which is transparent. The label is slightly in front so it doesn't get crazy patterns from sitting in the exact spot as the bottle. The label and cap have separate spots. The label would not be on clear PS or dye-cut. It does have a black rectangle border so I do like that it shows. I am not sure what to do to make the paper look more like cold-press paper. I am not clear on what you mean about the background. What do you mean by a curved background? I need to format this for 8.5 by 11 printouts which show the full package top to bottom. I would love your double skin template it would be fun to play around with. This bottle is so dark and the liquid is dark that it has no transparency on the shelf. I do all types of wine and so I'll have to puzzle out transparency another day. This is one of 10 layouts that I did and they really liked the realistic look.

16th January 2008, 06:20	#14 (permalink)
bwtr Brian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Australia Posts: 2,094	Next fresh canned bread! (Are drinks still supplied in steel cans?)

1st February 2008, 14:51	#16 (permalink)
3webjam Extrusion Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Holland Posts: 167	Sure looks good - can imagine that the client is very happy with this! Jacqueline

2nd February 2008, 05:16	#17 (permalink)
Bittles Spline Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 38	Yeah Jacqueline, I used this bottle to present 8 concepts. That design above I happen to like but we didn't show that. It was a big presentation and everyone was thrilled! I am now working on a Pinot bottle. Its sort of a challenge.

19th March 2008, 03:19	#19 (permalink)
Bittles Spline Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 38	Thank you jones2000u I look forward to checking it out. I got myself into a bit of a pickle with this project. They like the results so much I am havig to do extra work to convert old layouts to this 3D look. Also I want to improve it so how do I do that and not change all the layouts? Anyway we got the customer, they are big in the U.S.

19th March 2008, 04:23	#20 (permalink)
Bittles Spline Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 38	jones2000u I reviewed your fles. So much tighter than mine. Thanks for the screw cap! How create do you create your bottles? The way I do it is I trace a pic of the bottle, import a path, use spline and envlope.