[Carrara] Lighting a dark bottle

[bwtr]

In the Carrara Vertex Room just create a half shape and lathe!

[Bittles]

Hi Thanks for the tip.

Is there any benefit in using one mythod over the other? I like the drawing tools in Adobe Ill, it is easier to control. I like to trace my shape and import.

[bwtr]

Pretty basically, once you have understood the Vertex Room you will wonder why there is any need for the Spline Room.(Where you can trace over images)
Then, the next step up is Hexagon.(The Posh edition of the Vertex Room in Carrara)
Then the brilliant, easy to use, Nurbs modelling additional (Complimentary)app. MoI!

[Bittles]

I can see the spline as having a function. Someone like myself can get into Carrara quick and get things done using the knowledge from creating 3d elements in Adobe Illustrator. I would recommend keeping it there for that reason. I might have been too baffled by a foreign environment to proceed.

So tell me is there a way to incorporate my paths generated in illustrator into the vertex room or into Hexagon. I like the pen tools in illustrator for rendering shapes. I find the tools in Carrara clunky by comparison.

Thanks

[jones2000u]

Hi Bittles

I do it the same way as you, except the model is made in Amapi. Or Hex - doesn't matter really. I find it faster. A half profile of the bottle is drawn in AI CS3 starting from the bottom dome and then going up to the neck and back down inside, so you have an open curve, with the open bit in the centre bottom. Import the lines into Amapi. Then I trace over the illustrator stuff using the Amapi pen, because then everything is native. CS3, even back-saved, seems to crash Amapi. Lathe your bottle, as bwtr says, or extrude it around a circle and export the .obj. You might have to close the shape in the centre of the base dome.

The trick I use for the label is to export a open-ended cylinder with a slightly larger diameter than the bottle and about the depth of the bottle's side wall at the same time. This is the label carrier. Make sure the divisions are the same as the bottle or you might get wierd render effects where the polys clash.

Work out the flat area - height you know already, width is 2pi x R (?think) and that will give you a flat area artwork dimension. Make a file that size in AI or PS and place your label art in the middle of it. I always work in 300 dpi RGB because then I don't need to worry about pixels/scaling etc. And my original artwork is always the right size ;-)

Make a dupe of the label's cutter shape as an alpha mask greyscale, and at the same time, make other masks/greyscale texture channels you might need for paper effects like embossing etc. As the base art dimension is always the same, they will all fit perfectly with each other.

Back to the cylinder: make it transparent. Set ray depth to high - 14 seems OK, but takes longer. It won't be fully invisible unless you jack all the quality values up everywhere, which can be a loooong render, but most clients don't notice the slight haze... or the hairline top and bottom...

The beauty of this is that you always use the same cylinder for the bottle worked on and you can slide it up or down the bottle depending on where/how high you want the label to sit.

Have a look at the shaders in the zip - that will show you which goes where. So to answer your question, you change nothing in your old layouts!! You simply dupe them into 1. rectangle with label in and 2. alpha channel for the invisibility factor!

Once you have a work method sorted, you can bash through a lot of renders very quickly.

Sorry it's so wordy. If you need, it, I'll post a couple of screengrabs for the AI stuff.

Well done on winning the pitch - I know that wine company!

[jbshorty]

Just curious as to why you need to import curves from Illustrator just to make a revolved surface. Both of these programs have native drawing tools... Another thing i don't understand is why you need to add a seperate sleeve to hold the label. Why can't this just be applied on the bottle surface using shaders? That would surprise me if Carrara has to use such expensive workarounds for such a simple task...

jonah

[jones2000u]

Hi Jonah

Simple answer. I'm a graphics bloke, so AI is my stock drawing tool; I find it much faster to construct a (sort of) accurate template for wheel rims, film canister type stuff than drawing in Hex or Amapi, where I am painfully slow! And I imagine Bittles is in the same place as me - trace a bottle profile from a photo fast in AI, dump into Amapi and bingo! I replace the AI lines because CS3 is a crap upgrade and for every point you probably have 3 or 4 hidden. Nightmare.

The reason for the invisible tube is that you can very rapidly swap/change the label graphic in just two files - the source image and its alpha, then update the shader. If you are doing a presentation of maybe 10 different-shaped labels on one bottle shape, you need to be able to swap the label images very fast, so one is rendering while the art for the next is being done.

The key part is that if you decide the label needs to be a nudge lower on the bottle, you simply lower the cylinder a whisker. You don't need to alter the source images or the shader. Even works on tapered bottles if you remember to fake a little! The advantage for me working in real 300 dpi and at lifesize scaling is that I don't have to mess with the original artwork. I simply turn it into a tif or jpg that carrara can render from.

The art of cheating!

[jbshorty]

jones - why don't you just do one pass of a generic bottle without a label. then make a second render pass of each label (without the glass bottle behind it). then you can composite them together in Photoshop or Gimp or whatever? Seems more flexible and faster to do it this way, than to render the bottle and background 10 times...

about drawing in AI, I would call it anything but accurate! You should get yourself away from that habit as AI curves are typically garbage for 3D purposes. But you obviously know this already...

jonah

[Bittles]

Is attached what you mean? (Didn’t put the dome on this but I understand what you are saying.) This is minus the capsule or do you do the full shape, up to the top, and split it in the application some how?

I have hex and am able to import illustrator no problem. I do save the files as illustrator 3 maybe trying that that would help you with crashes in Ampai?

I just opened Hex tonight so I am clueless.

So I have my shape imported and now I am stuck. I found a tutorial which might explain the lathe technique
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=74564

OK let’s assume I had my shape figured out in hex and imported back to Carrara...

I do use a transparent bottle a little in front to put a label on. It allows different lighting. But I am confused by what you do, mostly due to terms and my complete lack of knowledge about the software.

lets see,

When you refer to “Flat area” what do you mean”? The area where the label goes? Do you work to scale? What height do I already know? The bottle height? What does width is 2pi x R mean?

Not sure what an alpha grayscale is? Are you refering to an Alpha channel in Photoshop? Not sure how you would make an Alpha grayscale. I create my label in illustrator export it at full scale as 300 dpi RGB and use texture map. I create a grey scale mask using black for the area to be invisible and white for visible. I use cylindrical mapping and it’s a pain positioning and sizing the label.

I like the idea of everything fitting together sounds good if I can figure out what you are talking about.

Are you able to apply foil affects and embossing affects to your label? I often simulate this after in Photoshop.

[Bittles]

Originally Posted by jbshorty

jones - why don't you just do one pass of a generic bottle without a label. then make a second render pass of each label (without the glass bottle behind it). then you can composite them together in Photoshop or Gimp or whatever? Seems more flexible and faster to do it this way, than to render the bottle and background 10 times...

about drawing in AI, I would call it anything but accurate! You should get yourself away from that habit as AI curves are typically garbage for 3D purposes. But you obviously know this already...

jonah

Yipes...say it ain't so. I do all my design work in illustrator. I fiddled with the drawing tools in hex and Carrara and they are so different from what I am familiar with. I can't figure them out. Yes I can draw, but I can't figure out how to cut a line or delete a point or combine paths. In illustrator I can stroke a path from the center convert it to paths than select the inside and outside for the bottle shape rather than trying to draw twice. Don't know maybe it's all there in hex just in a different outfit?

[rickei]

I think what he means is...
if you are using 2 objects - bottle(object 1) and your label(object 2)

I would render out a label-less bottle with a background.
then delete the bottle and background, leaving only the label object.
this way you can just render the label with no background or bottle....much faster.
the alpha mask is created during the rendering. so your final rendering should be in Tiff format with an alpha channel.
You bring the "bottle with background" render, and the render of a "label only" into PS. the "Label Only" render will have an alpha channel so that it is easily selected, and comped onto the "bottle with background" rendering.

this way you only have to render the glass once. and you can render out labels very quickly, as you need them.

[rickei]

Originally Posted by Bittles

Yipes...say it ain't so. I do all my design work in illustrator. I fiddled with the drawing tools in hex and Carrara and they are so different from what I am familiar with. I can't figure them out. Yes I can draw, but I can't figure out how to cut a line or delete a point or combine paths. In illustrator I can stroke a path from the center convert it to paths than select the inside and outside for the bottle shape rather than trying to draw twice. Don't know maybe it's all there in hex just in a different outfit?

there is nothing like that in Hex, but you can apply "thickness" so all you need is an outside profile and then add thickness towards the inside of the bottle

[Bittles]

Originally Posted by jones2000u

Hi Jonah
The advantage for me working in real 300 dpi and at lifesize scaling is that I don't have to mess with the original artwork. I simply turn it into a tif or jpg that carrara can render from.

Do you do the bottle at scale or is your label reduced when imported into the application?

Also, it seems I loose size relationship when I use the texture mapping feature. It would be idea if size relationships stayed the same is that what happens with your technique?

[Bittles]

Originally Posted by rickei

I think what he means is...
the alpha mask is created during the rendering. so your final rendering should be in Tiff format with an alpha channel.
You bring the "bottle with background" render, and the render of a "label only" into PS. the "Label Only" render will have an alpha channel so that it is easily selected, and comped onto the "bottle with background" rendering.

OK so lets say I have a label with a fancy dieline I use texture mapping to get that with a jpeg of the label art and a jpeg of the mask. Than I save as tiff. Does that export an alph mask with the file? Do I select something when I render to get the alpha mask?. Am I setting up the label correctly or is there another technique?

Shoot me now!

[rickei]

Originally Posted by Bittles

OK so lets say I have a label with a fancy dieline I use texture mapping to get that with a jpeg of the label art and a jpeg of the mask. Than I save as tiff. Does that export an alph mask with the file? Do I select something when I render to get the alpha mask?. Am I setting up the label correctly or is there another technique?

Shoot me now!

the Alpha mask I am speaking of is in your render options.

[rickei]

here is how i would do it
forgive the quality, but I threw this together while eating lunch.

I start in Illustrator, then paste my silhouette into a square PS document. then bring that into the front ref plane in Hex. then I just edge model a cylinder, using the silhouette, then I use the bottle geometry to create my label object.
import that into Carrara, and export a UV map to PS for my label template. then texture everything and render the bottle sans the label. then I hide everything but the label and render again, but this time with the alpha mask option turned on.

then in PS, I can comp everything together.

as you can see, I can edit and re-render the label without having to re-render the whole scene every time. this way you can fiddle with the label design and do as many test renders as you need.

also, my label is just a cylinder your design may vary.

hope this helps

[Bittles]

WOW thanks for the effort. I'll download and try to digest your information. I am still puzzling how to make my bottle in hex.

[jones2000u]

Originally Posted by jbshorty

jones - why don't you just do one pass of a generic bottle without a label. then make a second render pass of each label (without the glass bottle behind it). then you can composite them together in Photoshop or Gimp or whatever? Seems more flexible and faster to do it this way, than to render the bottle and background 10 times...

about drawing in AI, I would call it anything but accurate! You should get yourself away from that habit as AI curves are typically garbage for 3D purposes. But you obviously know this already...

jonah

eek - I didn't mean to create a storm here. I know Ai curves are garbage for pretty much anything - it's simply that Ai is the drawing prog I've grown up with and so it's fast. But that isn't the point really. Once you have a label design, typically constructed in Ai with backgrounds and effects added in PS for visualising purposes, it is very easy to export an rgb tif in a given pixel dimension. What you say makes perfect sense but it's swings and roundabouts - either render for the bottle and composite the labels, or render each label/bottle image as an entity. It doesn't make a lot of difference to the work flow.

[jones2000u]

rickei - your movie is really cool. How do I do one of those on a mac, because then I can show you what i'm banging on about from a label designer's point of view?

[jones2000u]

Originally Posted by Bittles

Do you do the bottle at scale or is your label reduced when imported into the application?

Also, it seems I loose size relationship when I use the texture mapping feature. It would be idea if size relationships stayed the same is that what happens with your technique?

This is how it works:

do your artwork to size as normal. Forget that the UV map is square - it doesn't matter. Draw your bottles to lifesize dimensions and then you know that it's all in sync.